Sam Tam demonstrating form

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Giles on Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:26 pm

oragami_itto wrote:That being said, certain postures do lend themselves more readily to certain applications. In my own application of the art I tend to think more abstractly about the desired energy flow in a movement and then just let my body create an expression that will manifest it. Only afterwards can I look at it and try to compare it to a formal posture for reference.


Precisely this. "Oh, it seems I just did a version of... [single whip; brush knee twist step; da lu; fan through back; golden cock stands on one leg... etc. etc.]. That's interesting..." The body memory serves to clarify vectors and alignments so that the emerging action is 'tai chi', but is not so strict that it forces you into any particular fixed idea and shape of a posture.

Wayne wrote: "I can think of at least 8 applications in single whip"
In the dim and distant past I once watched someone else's VHS copy of a video by Bruce Frantzis in which he demo'd about 60 (??) applications of Single Whip. It was actually pretty cool, as a work of reference it would be nice to have in electronic form.
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby GrahamB on Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:43 pm

I think this is the point where I'm supposed to say something passive aggressive and Tai Chi-like, like "pft! If you can only think of 8 applications of single whip then perhaps you shouldn't comment on Tai Chi..."

See, I'm getting better at Tai Chi every day!
I could be wrong.
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Giles on Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:55 pm

I'll try to be straight, not 'passive aggressive':
Graham, if you haven't got anything useful to contribute here in this thread right now, why not give it a break until you have?
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby GrahamB on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:00 pm

I guess providing a video application of single whip wasn't enough to be proved worthy? Goddamn it, tough crowd.

So what you're saying is that it's ok for your hero wayne to say that to me, but not me to say it to him. Right, got it.
Last edited by GrahamB on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Sep 27, 2021 1:29 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I can think of at least 8 applications in single whip
Backfist is not one of them it has its own place in the form
Try looking at SW as a variation of GST it will make it clearer
But like said elsewhere it is more a set of principles
To grab and use strength against your opponent is an error
If you don’t recognise that perhaps you should not comment on tai chi


If only those with perfect understanding discussed the art there wouldn't be much conversation.
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby co-lee on Mon Sep 27, 2021 2:20 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I can think of at least 8 applications in single whip


One of the things I love about single whip is the multitude of apps and the way they appear just as moments in the whole transition and posture. This elbow strike here? Comes and goes in an instant. This deflection here? Easy to miss during the turnaround from going left to going right. This hook sliding someone's hand off your arm ... And so forth.

As opposed to larger more obvious apps that present themselves in some moves, single whip is a feast of micro-apps.
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:30 pm

Not perfect but rudimentary might be nice
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:54 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Not perfect but rudimentary might be nice


Cause the change you want to see, share some of that knowledge in the spirit of magnifying the light.

It's hard to point to a definitive interpretation. T. T. Liang says if it works then do it. Others say to avoid falling prey to the near enemy of clumsy force. I suppose it's a matter of context. If I'm fighting for self defense I'll do whatever it takes to protect myself, maybe sometimes that's strength and gripping. Miyamoto Musashi said the only dishonor is falling with a weapon left unused.

In training, though, definitely invest in loss. Where it's safe to insist on proper methods to develop those mysterious and subtle skills.

Yang Cheng Fu says GST is a series of postures that represent the "Chief Hand" of the system, Yang Jwing Ming says GST is a single posture that occurs between preparation and ward off right. GM Chang says it's got a backfist in it.

Who can say what's a priori the true art? All we have is the telephone game through lineages of varying quality control. The classics are fundamental but open to many interpretations. All I can say for certain is whether something accords with my personal experience of the truth or not.

Take for example GM Chang, his taijiquan is correct according to his understanding and it seems to have served his shuai jiao well, but watching his clips and reading Sifu Wang's descriptions of the use of the art it doesn't appear to function the way I understand my own taijiquan to function. In form and function I believe his calisthenics are more similar to shuai jiao shadow boxing than Taijiquan, simply based on the wide divergence from my understanding of principle it represents.

But I don't claim the authority to sanctify or condemn another's practice or understanding. I clearly still have plenty to learn about taijiquan and currently have limited opportunity to expand that study. I hope I never do get to that point where I feel so entitled. It seems it would represent a loss of something precious and valuable.

So I'm open to these interpretations and consider them as I refine my own practice. Maybe I pick up a wrong idea or two, maybe not. Maybe I drop it when it proves less useful. There's no rush, no end goal, just refinement and practice and testing. The method is the reward.

So to that end I welcome any insight you can offer, in hopes it's more useful than "everybody sucks".
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 27, 2021 9:21 pm

I wrote a long reply to this but it evaporated
Can’t be bothered to repeat

If you want me to be quiet just PM me
If you don’t do the same

I will go by your decision
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Giles on Tue Sep 28, 2021 3:08 am

GrahamB wrote:I guess providing a video application of single whip wasn't enough to be proved worthy? Goddamn it, tough crowd.

So what you're saying is that it's ok for your hero wayne to say that to me, but not me to say it to him. Right, got it.


;)
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Doc Stier on Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:35 am

Apparently, damn near everyone is an expert online, but live and in person, usually not so much. ::)
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:28 pm

Bao wrote:Why would you need to pull from two different directions at the same time?

To control your opponent's leading arm is easy. To control your opponent's back arm is difficult. If you can control your opponent's back arm, when you pull that arm across his body and sweep his leading leg at the same time, you can take him down effortless.

To guide your opponent's one arm to jam/pin on his other arm is a very common principle in CMA.

- Your opponent throws right punch at you.
- You use left hand to block on his right elbow joint.
- You then throw a right back fist at his face.
- When he uses left arm to block your right back fist, you release your left elbow control hand, grab on his left wrist, you then use your right hand to pull on his left elbow, and use his left arm to jam his own right arm.
- If you use left foot to sweep his leading right leg, he will be down.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sam Tam demonstrating form

Postby Bao on Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:33 am

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:Why would you need to pull from two different directions at the same time?

To control your opponent's leading arm is easy. To control your opponent's back arm is difficult. If you can control your opponent's back arm, when you pull that arm across his body and sweep his leading leg at the same time, you can take him down effortless.

To guide your opponent's one arm to jam/pin on his other arm is a very common principle in CMA.



I am referring to the original movement. As Chang style does the double drag, you pull first on one direction. Then releases and pull in the other direction.

Image

And I said that if you already have dragged an opponent's arm in one direction, there's no point in releasing the grab to counter another incoming fist from the other hand, which was in fact another application you showed.

Yes, I know that "To guide your opponent's one arm to jam/pin on his other arm is a very common principle in CMA". That was not what I was referring to, or asked about. :-\

You complained about that you didn't understand the CMC variation, and then I questioned the Chang variation. But now, looking at all of your examples so far, I really don't believe that you don't have imagination enough to come up with a similar amount of applications for the CMC palm down variation. ;)
Last edited by Bao on Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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