Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:01 am

Fwiw, I think a phrase like "sink the qi to the dantien" is better than "relax" --even if there's no such thing as qi or dantien. It can serve as a mantra to trigger a relaxation response. Heck, counting backward from 10 to control one's temper is a similar idea.


For those who use it, there is :)

Just as “fan song “ translated as relax does not mean it in the same way.

The Chinese concept of mind, in this context is quite different,
Heart mind, is more apt talked about in other threads.

心意本無法 (xin yi ben wu fa)

心 - mind, "heart-mind"
意 - intent, idea
本 - origin, source, root, stem
無 - Nothing, nothingness, no,
法 - method, rule set


https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 5ae2c7a688

With out the cultural context ,
somethings may be confusing or not makes sense at all.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:11 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:00 pm

windwalker wrote:Very interesting reading the comments.

Many people talk about sticking, and Adhering

Would anyone care to share what they mean?

What/ how , What do they feel they are ie. “ Sticking to”, how do they do it ?

In the spirit of sharing, not as correct or only way.


As it happens, everybody's favorite guru just dropped a video on this subject.

https://youtu.be/YmaMliUGuJA
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby LaoDan on Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:20 pm

I would also love to discuss various understandings of zhan, nian, lian, sui. I agree with others that this is a significant characteristic of TJQ, and it is much less discussed than the eight energies (peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao), for example. I also understand these to be important for “yielding” and “leading” (including “leading into emptiness” which is the topic of this thread).

I only have limited instruction concerning these terms, so I am not particularly confident in my own understanding, and I found the posts by Doc and Steve to be interesting. Since there are many independent schools of TJQ (not to mention different styles), it would not surprise me if individual understandings varied. While the understanding by others differ somewhat from mine, I cannot really disagree with them; I find them to be reasonable interpretations. The following quote from Zhang Yun also differs somewhat from my own understanding, but I also find it to be interesting and reasonable (and not something that I would disagree with, even though it is not quite the way that I currently understand the terms):

The meanings of Zhan, Nian, Lian, and Sui are similar at some points, or we can say there are some parts mixing or overlap. So that for understanding them clearly, we need pay more attention to what is difference between them. The main difference between Zhan and Nian is that with Zhan you should make your opponent to stick to you by himself, but with Nian you should stick to your opponent, let him feel bad but can never leave you off. The main difference between Nian and Lian is that with Nian you should always follow your opponent and at the same time make trouble for him, but with Lian you just follow your opponent and do not try to unsettle him. The main difference between Lian and Sui is that with Lian your following like to chasing your opponent, you should always keep touch him and never let he go away. With Sui your following like go away (does not mean losing contact) from your opponent, although he can always touch you, he can never really get you. The main difference between Sui and Zhan is that with Sui you should follow your opponent's active action, but with Zhan you should follow your opponent's reaction which is his passive action.

I would welcome more discussion of these terms.
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby Steve James on Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:20 pm

I don't know the Chinese well enough to explain the terms or be sure I was using them correctly. When it came to phs, I'd compare it to catching a ball. I.e., if you want to catch a hardball, there's a technique. You don't want it to hit your hand too hard, but you don't want to let it go. But, what if you don't want to stop the ball at all --just redirect it. Or, better yet, not stop it and continue to throw it back in one motion? That seems to require a circle, but it works using a spiral.

Anyway, if you can imagine all those feelings, they're how I describe them. However, I change up. The ball can be a fist, yes. But, it's not the fist; it's the "energy" of the body to deal with, not just a body part. So, it's not as simple as catching an object. After all, what happens when there's a double punch? Or, you have to use two hands. :)

Fwiw, a knife can be a useful teaching device.
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby LaoDan on Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:32 pm

I have actually also taught my students the analogy of catching a ball bare-handed, and we practiced catching and throwing in one continuous motion. We seem to have a similar understanding. But I also suspect that my understanding is somewhat simplistic, and I am probably missing many of the nuances of the Chinese terms.
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:34 am

Throwing the bean bags has always been a big part of our school
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby Taste of Death on Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:03 pm

Steve James wrote:I don't know the Chinese well enough to explain the terms or be sure I was using them correctly. When it came to phs, I'd compare it to catching a ball. I.e., if you want to catch a hardball, there's a technique. You don't want it to hit your hand too hard, but you don't want to let it go. But, what if you don't want to stop the ball at all --just redirect it. Or, better yet, not stop it and continue to throw it back in one motion? That seems to require a circle, but it works using a spiral.

Anyway, if you can imagine all those feelings, they're how I describe them. However, I change up. The ball can be a fist, yes. But, it's not the fist; it's the "energy" of the body to deal with, not just a body part. So, it's not as simple as catching an object. After all, what happens when there's a double punch? Or, you have to use two hands. :)

Fwiw, a knife can be a useful teaching device.


American baseball player Barry Bonds said that you don't hit the ball with the bat, you catch it. This didn't make sense to me until I viewed it from an IMA perspective. We don't just hit our opponent in IMA, we catch them and then throw them, all in one motion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfoXaNZQce4

Your hands up, short and balanced. That's what keeps everything straight.
Last edited by Taste of Death on Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm

A push is a strike and a strike a push
A push puts the correct mechanics into your strikes
The whole body is a hand
Listening energy is the only energy for without that you can’t develop the others
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:20 pm

wayne hansen wrote:A push is a strike and a strike a push
A push puts the correct mechanics into your strikes
The whole body is a hand
Listening energy is the only energy for without that you can’t develop the others


Is there a difference between a strike and "butting in"?
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby Steve James on Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:35 am

Listening energy is the only energy for without that you can’t develop the others


Well, it's hard to be the only if there are others, though I get what you mean. I think "listening" may be the correct translation for "ting" (or tingjin). But, I'd argue that "feeling," "reading," or "sensing" are better descriptions. Listening happens with the ears --unless it's a metaphor for something else.

In English terms, "reading" an opponent's action or "sensing" his intentions make sense. In practice, that's what has to happen. That's why good boxers "feel" each other out, even before they touch. Good wrestlers also feel for their opponent's actions and reactions. My point is that these are all things (skills to develop) that could fall under the category of "listening."
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby everything on Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:11 am

from sports, here is one of my favorites

Image
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby everything on Fri Nov 26, 2021 10:16 am

machida used to like to entice a punch so he could do this throw

Image
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:03 pm

everything wrote:machida used to like to entice a punch so he could do this throw

Image

thank you. Another example of pull/push concept, but enticing without contact. Machida entices (yin) without contact, contacts/controls (zhan/adhere) when the opponent is double weighted/half beat (emptiness), then issues (e.g., throw, punch, push, etc).

As someone likes to say, "Which strategy is better?" Entice with contact or no contact? "Touch boxing" or no touch boxing?

marvin8 wrote:Assuming you already have the skill, controlling someone outside of their reach will give you a greater advantage than controlling someone within the range where they can hit or counter you. ...

There is a greater advantage (levels) in controlling one's center with no contact than controlling someone's lead arm with contact. Control with no contact > 1 point contact > 2 point contact > 3 point contact.

Inoue says to Payano, "You...extend...extend...extend, I issue (KO):"

Image

marvin8 wrote:An example is the "pull/push" strategy shown in this thread, "Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji:"

Image
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:05 pm

marvin8 wrote:
marvin8 wrote:An example is the "pull/push" strategy shown in this thread, "Tai Chi Fa Jin Analysis: Old Man Taiji:"

Image


Was wondering is that what you "see" happening despite the description / translation ?

push / pull ?

A friendly "test-demo" showing a type of skill....

Often teachers will tell the other person to push or use as much force as they can....
Done for a couple of reasons, one of which is to show that, the type of force used will not work on them
used in that way....
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Re: Entice into Emptiness 引進落空

Postby marvin8 on Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:20 pm

windwalker wrote:Was wondering is that what you "see" happening despite the description / translation ?

I see what the description / translation reads, "You push...push...push."
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