Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Appledog on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:24 am

Lol Bill Moyers the mystery of Qi. I loved that video, but for the Ma Yue Liang footage.

windwalker wrote:How many posting about QI, can do anything similar to the demonstrations of what is said it enables one to do or effect.


Sure, I can do it. I consider it a mistake when it occurs in training, maybe it has some kind of a use in a demo to trick observers but because I know it's a mistake I find it somewhat dishonest to employ in a demo. That being said, as it is not well-known to outsiders I can't fault any school for using this as a demo to attract students. As for myself I am somewhat embarrassed when it happens during training because it suggests that the skill gap is so large that it may impinge upon straightforward teaching of the art. Both the teacher and the student must adjust when this type of problem occurs in training. I plan on producing some videos on this topic in the future because it is such a vital issue. Maybe when it gets warm. I'm in Toronto if anyone wants to visit.

windwalker wrote:(pronounces as Qi in Chinese) of breathing is air.
The gas from atmosphere is mainly composed of oxygen and nitrogen. Humans inhale air into lungs, the lungs take in oxygen but release carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.
So, the composition of the inhaled air and exhaled air are different, but they are all composed by gas molecules.

On the contrary, the Qi of "Qi sinks in Dantian" is not composed of gas molecules at all. To differentiate them, we call the Qi in "Qi sink in Dantian" as genuine Qi (in Chinese, gas and Qi are shearing a same word).

Many articles discuss "what is genuine Qi." And the conclusions are not unanimous.


From a historical perspective, in literature, and by practice, qi of the dantian is accumulated from qi of the air by breathing. Is there another way to do it?

windwalker wrote:Others believe that genuine Qi is a substance. More people propose that genuine Qi is an electromagnetic wave. Yet additional people suggest that genuine Qi is a pure energy.
These views can explain some aspects of Qi phenomena, but no single postulation can explain all the aspects and facts of Qi.
Even though the concept of Qi is the foundation of the traditional Chinese medicine theory, the modern definition of Qi is not unanimous.


Well, I hope it doesn't sound rude, but at this stage of the game I don't care anymore. For example, below you quote a study;

This paper presents a new concept: intention wave; and identify that Qi[/b] (LA) in Taijiquan is the
intention wave. An intention wave is the creation and propagation of Physiological wave under the guidance of the mind.
In this paper, using the concept of intention wave, we study the relationship and difference between the gas of breathing and the Qi in Taijiquan.


Why should I care what this report has to say when everyone knows if you guide qi with the intention it will disappear?

It's somewhat stunning to me. I really cannot understand what is so hard to get about this qi stuff.


robert wrote:I'm not sure what your idea of fascia is. Fascia is not just superficial it encloses muscles and internal organs.

A fascia (/ˈfæʃ(i)ə/; plural fasciae /ˈfæʃii/; adjective fascial; from Latin: "band") is a band or sheet of connective tissue, primarily collagen, beneath the skin that attaches to, stabilizes, encloses, and separates muscles and other internal organs.[1] Fascia is classified by layer, as superficial fascia, deep fascia, and visceral or parietal fascia, or by its function and anatomical location.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascia

FWIW.


Fair enough - maybe if you tell me which particular kind of fascia we're talking about, it would help. For example, are we going to include epimysium, paramysium and endomysium in this kind of fascia, or is it more along the lines of the deep tissue fascia that we are trying to stimulate, perhaps via stretching?
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:39 am

Appledog wrote:Sure, I can do it. I consider it a mistake when it occurs in training, maybe it has some kind of a use in a demo to trick observers but because I know it's a mistake I find it somewhat dishonest to employ in a demo.

That being said, as it is not well-known to outsiders I can't fault any school for using this as a demo to attract students.

As for myself I am somewhat embarrassed when it happens during training because it suggests that the skill gap is so large that it may impinge upon straightforward teaching of the art.

Both the teacher and the student must adjust when this type of problem occurs in training.

I plan on producing some videos on this topic in the future because it is such a vital issue. Maybe when it gets warm.
I'm in Toronto if anyone wants to visit.



Should be interesting seeing some of your work.

As for myself I am somewhat embarrassed when it happens during training because it suggests that the skill gap is so large that it may impinge upon straightforward teaching of the art.


Or that what is being used is quite different..

It's not been my experience, often those who had the most experience in other arts where the ones that stayed feeling something they have never encountered before in meeting my teacher.

Regarding studies, sometimes I post studies of things that I don't necessarily agree with in order to show the variations of thought on the subject.
Do find it interesting those who purport to study internal arts, some having done so for quite a long time don't have a very solid idea or perception of what Qi means or is in their practice.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby everything on Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:00 am

yes to the practitioner, things should "feel real" not be a "concept". there isn't anything esoteric. there isn't any need for complication. yes some of the taoist philosophy seems too abstract, but once you know something, the abstract language is (perhaps ironically) more elucidating than the abstruse but trying-to-be-precise language. I'm just a beginner. but i can say when you make some progress, you think "oh ok that makes sense". "empty your cup" is really the best advice. if you are sincerely interested rather than wanting to create straw men and can't do that, you likely could use meditation and more zhan zhuang, I don't know what to tell you. those are "proven technologies".

Far better an approximate answer to the right question, which is often vague, than the exact answer to the wrong question, which can always be made precise.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Appledog on Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:12 am

windwalker wrote:You haven't posted any videos of yourself doing anything else.
But you will post some videos about this?


Well, it's kind of like us talking about this in more detail now, but for some unknown reason we didn't talk about it earlier :) Just one of those things, I don't pay it any attention. If you were looking to see my stuff I did have a school open in Taiwan for three years, but no one came to visit. But upon seeing my stuff I think you would not be interested. The first problem we would face is that you by your own statement don't do Tai Chi. It's like you say below:

As for myself I am somewhat embarrassed when it happens during training because it suggests that the skill gap is so large that it may impinge upon straightforward teaching of the art.


Or that what is being used is quite different..

It's not been my experience, often those who had the most experience in other arts where the ones that stayed feeling something they have never encountered before in meeting my teacher.


As they should! My teacher always says, if you find that you are not making progress, find another school. And in many ways you are right -- what is being used really is different -- quite different. I've been to peace park and gotten tossed out many a time myself, for example. Why didn't I stay? I was able to recognize "what is being used is quite different".

Actually I would say it is similar but unfortunately different enough that the training methodology is completely different. If I had more time over the years I would guess the end goal is really quite similar though.

Can you do it? Have you tossed people out? What was your experience in these situations? Also, how do you feel when you get tossed out yourself? Do you think it is something beyond your control (the teacher's skill) or do you consider it a deficit in your own form (the fault of the student)?
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby robert on Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:16 am

Appledog wrote:Fair enough - maybe if you tell me which particular kind of fascia we're talking about, it would help. For example, are we going to include epimysium, paramysium and endomysium in this kind of fascia, or is it more along the lines of the deep tissue fascia that we are trying to stimulate, perhaps via stretching?

I didn't write the paper and it's been a while since I read it. I don't remember what he said specifically regarding fascia. My experience regarding fascial tension involves at least two layers - superficial and deep. I suspect it involves the visceral as well.
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:09 pm

Appledog wrote:
Can you do it? Have you tossed people out?

What was your experience in these situations? Also, how do you feel when you get tossed out yourself?
Do you think it is something beyond your control (the teacher's skill) or do you consider it a deficit in your own form (the fault of the student)?


Can and have , to the level of my ability.


how do you feel when you get tossed out yourself?


What is moved is not the body,,,the body follows or tries to regain its equilibrium to what is moved.
Responses to this are quite interesting exhibited by different people.

The thread about "Qi" what is thought to give rise to the feeling of "Qi" doesn't accord with my experiences nor what has been written about it.
While interesting reading, it seems like some are talking about something they've not experienced nor really practice with...

Have met teachers in Taiwan, even had a couple of students there, who liked my "taiji" work.
Hoping to get back, not so easy these days...

If you were looking to see my stuff I did have a school open in Taiwan for three years, but no one came to visit. But upon seeing my stuff I think you would not be interested. The first problem we would face is that you by your own statement don't do Tai Chi. It's like you say below:



Don't go looking for others schools out side of where I practiced.
Have interacted with some that I've met in Hsinchu...

What problem? I've seen many things I don't agree with that I may or may not find interesting..
Respect all others practices...its their practice...

In Hsinchu, many yrs back. met a teacher Chen

Image

Teacher Chen Yihong

present position: the second generation director of hua tuo yangsheng taiji taoist hall, a member of the jiu-jitsu committee of the hsinchu city sports association, a member of the taichung municipal sports association national wushu committee, the head coach of the hsinchu ming wushu association, the taichung municipal sports association.


https://blog.xuite.net/mapletaichi/twblog/134072638


Our first meeting sometime in 2002.
Walking around the city of Hsinchu, Taiwan.

Happened to see a taiji group playing push hands in one of the many local parks.

Stopping to watch and practice taiji away from the group.

One of the students seeing me, spoke in English introducing himself and then me to his teacher. The same student who could speak English suggested me and his teacher, touch hands, a friendly test and comparison of taiji skill sets.

Teacher Chen, agreed smiling in his warm friendly way.

When we touched hands both of us did not move, able to sense each others movements inside. Understanding this, we both laughed and broke contact. His students quite surprised and mystified as to what happened when there was no outer movement.

We both laughed and shared some tea, and lunch afterwards.

Becoming friends, spent some time talking about taiji, he sharing some books he had written,

I giving him some VHS tapes of Master Zhang, my teacher in China.

Some 12 years later in Hsinchu, Taiwan we would meet again.

Sadly at the time he was battling thyroid cancer. A battle he would lose sometime in 2015

May his spirit rest in peace..
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby windwalker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:29 pm

I've been to peace park and gotten tossed out many a time myself, for example. Why didn't I stay? I was able to recognize "what is being used is quite different".


Peace park is nice.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKSm5Vkcz8A

Met this teacher and some in his group...with some students of mine from the US visiting their families in Taiwan ... They originally from Taiwan.

Interesting talking off line to his students,,,
Nice group..

There are other groups.

2-28 Peace Park Taipei, Taiwan 和平公園 (he2 ping2 gong1 yuan2) - Precious' Experience
I've only been to the 2-28 Peace Park 和平公園 in Taipei a few times... but on the rare occasion that I made the 8 hour journey from Taidong to Taipei, the Peace Park Push Hands group was a must stop for me.

Their push hands are excellent and they practice long and hard each day. There are a few masters that attend the Peace Park group regularly.

http://taichitaiwan.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... ping2.html

for those interested
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Quigga on Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:55 am

Appledog - I'm a bit tired yet will post anyway. Just addressing some things that caught my eye.

1) how to accumulate Qi: many ways. Eating, breathing, fucking, stillness, some medicines, sunlight, using the 5 hearts and connecting to outer sources, platonic loving or caring loving touch. Drinking tea and water.
Did you mean only 'breathing' or skin breathing, other types of breath? If you're hardcore you can just tap into limitless Qi via Akasha. The amount of juice that can be pulled from the void depends on a few things I don't want to write down now. It's a training process.

2) You said when directing Qi via Intention it vanishes. This goes directly against the internal harmonies and sounds pretty bonkers to me. Yet you may have reached a level where your intention is 100% synced to that of the Dao Creator Goddess :D Then every intended action that goes contrary to this sync is at least a lot less powerful, if not impossible.

Yet there is the danger of literally losing oneself and going crazy. Sometimes with no coming back. So it's important to be able to tune into this 'higher' intention and tune back out. Your ability to make choices and reap consequences will always remain, excluding various illnesses like dementia.

How do you gather Qi at lower dantian, circulate, nourish, etc without various usuages of intention? Before everything happens on it's own, quite a lot of work is required. Haven't met you.

3) Fascia goes through every cell and the tiniest corner of the body. You're gravely misinformed when it comes to this tissue. Get a copy of Anatomy Trains and read up. Then read up on Hermetic electric and magnetic stretching, see where it crosses with IMA and alchemy. 2 small examples: without fascia, the mathematical equations to lift even 50-100kg off the floor don't add up. We wouldn't be able to move it. Yet, if the same force was generated only by muscles and without fascia present, Olympic lifters would straight up explode on stage. Fascia is just so *chef kiss* at transmitting power.

4) Even people without IMA training can have great Qi or Jing or shen. See Olympic lifters for great development. In the end, the results will be quite a bit different though.

5) Tossing and being tossed... Don't toss my salad! It's nothing special, a good way to mechanically train Jin. Long Jin is harder to develop alone than Short Jin, but very much possible. I've 'tossed' a few people. With their steps, about 10m is doable :). Qinna is also great for throwing.

6) just stack up the dantians, let go and let the magic unfold. It's impossible to live with only of them as your center. Yet you can combine them, align them in accordance to your individual body's relationships, shapes, sizes and create a new center from which to live. 'Zhong ding' or central equilibrium.
Quigga

 

Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Quigga on Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:37 am

Re visceral fascia - the organs are essential. Connecting skin and organs is one way of inside = outside. Yet the ability to differentiate remains.

To emphasize, I don't get why people want to use 'pure' or only one flavor/stage of Jin, Jing, Qi,... It all mixes up anyways. The same problem arises when you extract blood or whatever from a body and then claim 'Look! This is blood!'. It's blood that's been isolated from it's natural environment, blood that doesn't serve it's intended functions and such we can't usually grasp what 'live, real' blood actually is.

Ok ok, clear terms and definitions are important :)
Quigga

 

Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Quigga on Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:43 am

To train everything at once, do this together: observe, move, relax. That's as far as I can break it down, yet this is too broken down. The same message needs to be communicated differently according to one's progress. Don't compare! Or do! I don't care.
Last edited by Quigga on Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Appledog on Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:16 am

Hello Quigga. Thanks for your post.

Quigga wrote:1) how to accumulate Qi: many ways. Eating, breathing, fucking, stillness, some medicines, sunlight, using the 5 hearts and connecting to outer sources, platonic loving or caring loving touch. Drinking tea and water.
Did you mean only 'breathing' or skin breathing, other types of breath? If you're hardcore you can just tap into limitless Qi via Akasha. The amount of juice that can be pulled from the void depends on a few things I don't want to write down now. It's a training process.


The primary means to accumulate "dantian qi" is by "breathing in" qi from the air (do you think that's air your breathing? -Morpheus). The other ways you mentioned do not train dantian qi. Stillness (and motion) are both good, but only because during this, breathing is the most important quality of the movement. Eating accumulates a different kind of qi -- like xue qi, maybe -- but not dantian qi.

Quigga wrote:2) You said when directing Qi via Intention it vanishes. This goes directly against the internal harmonies and sounds pretty bonkers to me. Yet you may have reached a level where your intention is 100% synced to that of the Dao Creator Goddess :D Then every intended action that goes contrary to this sync is at least a lot less powerful, if not impossible.


Wei wu wei.. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quigga wrote:Yet there is the danger of literally losing oneself and going crazy. Sometimes with no coming back. So it's important to be able to tune into this 'higher' intention and tune back out. Your ability to make choices and reap consequences will always remain, excluding various illnesses like dementia.


That is why you shouldn't try this kind of exercise unless you have the guidance of a teacher. There is such a thing as 'qi sickness'... hmm

Quigga wrote:How do you gather Qi at lower dantian, circulate, nourish, etc without various usuages of intention? Before everything happens on it's own, quite a lot of work is required. Haven't met you.


Just sink your breath. But getting ultra technical here, accumulating qi does take intention, because you have to intend to sink your breath. This is what is meant by keep your mind on your dantian. The intention does lead the qi in this sense, but let me put it this way. If you had a steam heater in your basement and the pressure gage started to go up too much, like in the shining -- pressing on the little pressure gauge needle isn't going to help. This is what people get focused on -- they see the result moving and they try to affect it and it fails. What needs to be done is move other parts of the machine, special parts, that you know to move -- like the pressure release valve. Now, how did you know to move the pressure release valve? Because you know you have one -- this is how the machine is controlled -- by what you are aware of. There is a progression here -- first you are intellectually looking for it, then you become aware of it, then you learn how to touch it. Then you can open the intake valve, close the intake valve, open the pressure release valve, close the pressure release valve... This is how the machine is operated, not by pushing on a gauge needle.

Quigga wrote:3) Fascia goes through every cell and the tiniest corner of the body. You're gravely misinformed when it comes to this tissue. Get a copy of Anatomy Trains and read up. Then read up on Hermetic electric and magnetic stretching, see where it crosses with IMA and alchemy. 2 small examples: without fascia, the mathematical equations to lift even 50-100kg off the floor don't add up. We wouldn't be able to move it. Yet, if the same force was generated only by muscles and without fascia present, Olympic lifters would straight up explode on stage. Fascia is just so *chef kiss* at transmitting power.


This is equivalent to looking at our hypothetical steam machine and remarking, wow, look at all those pipes. It's irreverent. Do you want to use the machine or look at it? Our blood is another example. Tirelessly working in our body, we are unaware of where it comes from and where it goes. When I pick up a glass of water the flow of blood in my arm is irreverent to me.

Quigga wrote:5) Tossing and being tossed... Don't toss my salad! It's nothing special, a good way to mechanically train Jin. Long Jin is harder to develop alone than Short Jin, but very much possible. I've 'tossed' a few people. With their steps, about 10m is doable :). Qinna is also great for throwing.


I assume you were using some kind of push hands as a platform for this? Was it freeform, or structured? Thx :)
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby everything on Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:23 am

Great long posts. The body tried to regain its equilibrium is a great phrase from ww. I have only been pushed. I can’t push. But that was the feeling. We beat the horse to death already. Random thought. Olympic gymnasts should have the “best” fascia.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Quigga on Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:05 am

I'm attached to and care about my blood working and flowing. I can feel my own heartbeat 24/7 at the physical heart, at Ba Hui, hand and feet centres :) More easily when in good condition.

Wei Wu Wei... All the people I've known who said this as a reasoning for whatever were miles away from it. Maybe you're an exception, I doubt it though.

What you call ultra technical is the very basic stuff. If you can't get this right, all else will fail. 'Keeping the mind at dantian' = sinking breath... There is much more to it. Try 'guarding the center'.

Qi sickness, yup. Been through it, not fun.

Using the machine and looking at it can be the same thing :). When observing your self in action.

When you think of yourself as a steam machine, how do you feel?

Yes it was free pushhands.

As for cultivating lower dantian: no more comment from me. Ok, last one. Have you ever tried doing so when having a completely shitty lifestyle? Difficult but possible. Much easier other way around.
Quigga

 

Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Appledog on Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:35 pm

I would be worried about feeling blood pumping in your bai hui. That's a mass of bone at the top of your head. If you are feeling blood pulsing in your head anywhere you might want to get it checked. In the temples frequently means thyroid disease or anemia -- both of which have occurred in my family, so I've seen it. If you feel a pulse at the top of your head from blood I would be a bit concerned, you might have pressure inside the skull from anything from high blood pressure, anxiety, to something more serious like a tumor or hemorrhage or anyeurism. You also mention you had qi sickness in the past. Qi sickness is generally a symptom of not doing qigong properly and getting strange blockages. It usually requires a specialist to solve. If that really happened to you and you'd like to talk about it I'd be interested to know how it happened and how you got out of it.

I'm also a bit confused on what guarding the center means. I can understand if you don't want to explain it, but you didn't provide any context or explanation so I don't know what you're talking about. Is there a Chinese term for it?

Quigga wrote:As for cultivating lower dantian: no more comment from me. Ok, last one. Have you ever tried doing so when having a completely shitty lifestyle? Difficult but possible. Much easier other way around.


Baby steps.
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Re: Fascial tension gives rise to Qi

Postby Quigga on Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:31 am

As you probably can guess, my heart is still blocked. I'm getting glimpses of how it can be when it's always opened, but living that way is quite challenging. My fears and conditioning are still holding me back quite a bit. Tensions all over the place, else I'd be a ghost. Some of what I write is just channelled stuff I probably rather should journal, organize, market and then profit from.

Origami, you asked me regarding writing about Middle Dantian some time ago. I hesitate to do so, since I'm still not over 50% competency in that region. Maybe 20-30%. Getting feedback on my opinions about the world and stream of thought entries greatly helps in this process.

Medical conditions and physical changes brought by energetic flows initiated by the mind may often be confused. Discernment is recommended, you're right.

IMO I don't need to be worried about the pulse sensation. It can have even more explanations than what you mentioned, here's just a few off the top of my head.

1) Empty Fire, Yin Deficiency with Yang Abundance
2) various drugs, even coffee and cigarettes
3) high BP
4) other more acute causes you included
5) the result of a training process

For me, it's 5 :-). Sensitivity and energetic nourishment or abundance are important. I had lots of intense sensations in my organs over the years. Sometimes pain was so bad I couldn't move and thought I'd die. You could say I made plenty of mistakes and learnt from some, hopefully. Yet part of the process just involves pushing you over limits and boundaries.
Quigga

 

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