zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:35 pm

Steve James wrote: :) "Sticking" in western boxing isn't similar to stick or adhere in tcc. Imo, that's because the emphasis is solely on striking. It's more applicable in grappling/wrestling (forms of 'na'), and especially in throwing and/or where the object is to use the opponent's force/jin against him. I.e., the skill of attaching to an opponent then following and leading him in the same direction using little of one's own force/jin.

The goals are similar: know your opponent, harmonize with them, control their movements/positions, understand/create their intent, while not resisting and not separating from them.. The difference is "sticking" from a distance without contact. Engagement distance is where an opponent's step jab can't reach you—just out of reach but close enough to change and attack.

The tactics/skills to stick from a distance: control distance & space, pressure/retreat, footwork, yin, ting, na, and hua.

Steve James wrote:That is a strategy, but not the only one. As Doc pointed out, maintaining one's stability while leading the opponent into a compromised position (to execute a strike, for ex) is also a strategy. Imo, a boxer slipping a punch in order to land a blow is a similar concept. In a push hands thread, George, iinm, where a tcc teacher exhibited it quite well.

This is the one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ5ULWxXY5k&t=182s

Yes. Lure and probe from an engagement point with lu/ji footwork to draw a punch, change, follow/slip and issue a counter punch.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:37 pm

Excerpts from "Push Hands: Fundamental Skills and Theory:"

A conversation with Yang Laoshi, Dave Barrett and Lance Lu wrote:DB: So now let's talk about Nian or adhering. Is there a Chinese saying about this skill?

YJ: Yes, it's: 溜liu 恋lian 纔qian 绳quan 之zhi 渭we i 也ye. This is hard to explain but the saying describes the opponent as totally immersed or enclosed in something like a gel or glue. So they can move anywhere but when they move they cannot be free of this contact.

DB: I think I understand, the opponent has freedom of motion?

YJ: That's right, but any motion they make is covered by a pressure. For example if you move in air and then move underwater it's different. Can you do the same thing in air that you can underwater? Yes, but underwater in slow motion maybe it's the same but if you move quickly it feels different underwater than in the air, because of the pressure.

DB: So the adhering skill seems to be more of a free energy in that I'm not trying to lift or stick I'm just trying to create constant contact in any direction.

YJ: That's right: any direction he moves, the opponent is not very free to go. You have adhering to protect you because by adhering eventually you can deflect the opponent's energy away from your center.

DB: What happens if I don't have Nian? I may have sticking contact but if the opponent can shake this contact, I'm in trouble. Is Nian more of a protective energy?

YJ: It's like if you push something in the water as opposed to pushing in the air, what's the difference? Without Nian, this fluid sensation of contact, the opponent can easily move into your center. If you have Nian, there is this pressure that can be used to guide the opponent to the side.

DB: Is this a more responsive type of energy? With Zhan or sticking I initiate the energy but with Nian is this a passive, constant type of feeling?

YJ: Actually with Zhan, it's both because you use a part of your opponent's energy. If they give you nothing you cannot use it. Nian is the same type of thing: if they give you nothing you still cannot redirect them. If something is dropped into a gel it doesn't move, but when it does move, there is a pressure from contact with the gel….

DB: I've seen some explanations of these four principles that say, for example, Zhan is a vertical energy and the others are lateral or diagonal. It seems so complicated.

YJ: No, no, no. These energies include all directions

DB: The final word we have yet to discuss is Lian or connect. Is there an explanatory phrase for this skill?

YJ: Yes: 舍she 己ji 元WU 禽Ii 之zh i i胃wei 也ye. This basically describes Lian as forgetting yourself and staying connected with the opponent. Follow your opponent and keep connected with them. Even if they move back you still try to go with them to stay connected. From this connecting skill comes many techniques, for example, being able to borrow the opponent's energy by connecting from forward to back, back to forward, actually this can be used in any direction.


Excerpts from "Zhan, Lian, Nian and Sui, AN ANNOTATED LEXICON CHARACTER ANALYSIS BY ANDY LEE AND SARAH OLSEN:"

Commentary Compiled by Dave Barrett wrote:NIAN

"Nian adheres to and joins with a partners energy" ~ Gaffney, pg. 163

"Nian is the ability to follow so closely when the opponent retreats that one is attached like a shadow to him" ~ Chen Yan/in, The Tao of Tai Chi Chuan, pg. 220

"If the opponent retreats, to adhere to him tenaciously is to render him in a disadvantageous position and to place him under one's control." ~ Lee Ying-arng, pg. 36

"It is said in The Tai Chi classics that to remain in the most advantageous position and leave one's opponent at a disadvantage is called Nian." Jou Tsung Hwa, pg, 244

"Nian, or cohering, means continually guiding the movements of your opponent so he cannot escape your control. Paradoxically you do this by following the movements he makes." ~ Zhang Yun, The Art of Chinese Swordsmanship, pg. 32

"One should let some part of his arm, by his keen sense of touch, get adhered to his opponents. And in this state of adherence, one should follow the opponen為movement, at the same time issue a very slight amount of energy to try and drive the opponent into a disadvantageous or unstable position." ~ Wang Peisheng, pg. 191

"While engaging the opponent in a struggle, attach to his movements in order not to let him get away." ~ Yearning K.Chen, pg.163

"Nian means to have no separation from the opponent so that you may interpret his movement and intent." ~ Olson, pg. 49

"The original meaning of Nian is to stick, adhere, or paste to. In Taijiquan practice it means to keep in contact with your opponent and through this contact to make him feel uncomfortable. Keep this contact and never let him go away. It is like something adheres to his body." ~ Zhang Yun, Four key skills for Push Hands and fighting, pg. 36

LIAN

"Lian is an energy that links and joins with a partner's energy" ~ Gaffney, pg. 163

"Join the opponent in every moment of the struggle, Jet him take the lead but never leave him, simply dragging on to tire him out and expose his weak points." ~ Yearning K. Chen. pg. 163

"Lian means continually using your Jin, your internal force, never letting it break while you are in contact with your opponent. When you touch the opponent, never Jet him break away from your Lian." ~ Zhang Yun. The Art of Chinese Swordsmanship, pg. 32

"In addition to direction, proximity, body method and stance, one must in particular join together with the opponent. Otherwise the Ti Jin (lifting energy) technique will have no effect; the use of this method must be adapted to circumstances. To get the upper hand in the use of Ti, it comes after leading the opponent, then it matters not which energy-any of them could be used to strike and the opponent will most certainly be dispatched. This is what is meant by the phrase in The Song of Pushing Hands, 'Lead (him) into emptiness, join, then issue.'" ~ Chen Yanlin, quoted in Swaim, pg.204-205

"The original meaning of Lian is to continue or link. There are two meanings of Lian in Taijiquan practice. They are to continually follow and change. The first one means that you maintain continual contact by following your opponent and never letting him leave The other idea of Lian means to continually change as you are following. That means each of your techniques are joined together like the links of a chain, never breaking your mind and movements and never giving you opponent any chance to change." ~ Zhang Yun, Four key skills for Push Hands and fighting, pg. 3
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:13 pm

"Nian adheres to and joins with a partners energy" ~ Gaffney, pg. 163

"Lian is an energy that links and joins with a partner's energy" ~ Gaffney, pg. 163


I think this is how students can become confused. Anyway, my point was that to stick in boxing is different from sticking/adhering (or joining/following) than in tcc. Your experience may differ, but I've yet to see traditional tcc practitioners able to stick to boxers, and boxers don't try to adhere to other boxers. So, I don't think it's a good comparison for that. They don't try to feel for their opponent's arms in order to lead him into emptiness. They just want the opponent to miss. (Usually, though there is the "rope a dope" and boxers whose strategy includes taking punches in order to deliver them.

Anyway, sweeps aren't permitted in boxing --although they are in muay thai. I'd argue they would be a better example of sticking. Btw, there are many definitions of sticking and adhering. But, the best analogy I know is that "sticking" is the action of putting a stamp on an envelope; adhering is the glue on the stamp that makes it hard to remove. Being able to adhere makes it possible to follow, which allows one to redirect.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:39 pm

Steve James wrote:Anyway, my point was that to stick in boxing is different from sticking/adhering (or joining/following) than in tcc. Your experience may differ, but I've yet to see traditional tcc practitioners able to stick to boxers, and boxers don't try to adhere to other boxers. So, I don't think it's a good comparison for that. They don't try to feel for their opponent's arms in order to lead him into emptiness. They just want the opponent to miss. (Usually, though there is the "rope a dope" and boxers whose strategy includes taking punches in order to deliver them.

Boxers "adhere" at a distance. You are limiting the definition of adhere, whether technically correct.

marvin8 wrote:"Yang Cheng Fu — The Story of a Cotton Thread"

Mei Ying Sheng Translated by Ted W. Knecht wrote:In the year 1932, Master Yang Cheng Fu and his disciple, Fu Zhong Wen, traveled south to the city of Guang Zhou in Guang Dong Province to teach the art of Taijiquan. One day, a martial arts teacher by the name of Liu and his disciples went to the residence of Master Yang. Upon observing the way in which Liu was dressed and the manner in which he held himself, Master Yang knew that this man’s talents in fighting were extraordinary. Upon meeting Yang Cheng Fu, Liu raised his hands, saluted Master Yang and said: “It is well known that your skills in Taiji are superior and for three generations your family has been without equals. I have especially come here to see your skills.” Master Yang realized Liu was challenging him to a duel and that the conflict would be unavoidable. Master Yang suddenly thought of an idea to prevent a fight but to maintain the code of the martial world (Wu Lin). He told his disciple, Fu Zhong Wen, to go and get out a one foot piece of cotton thread.

Young Fu was shocked when he heard this because the cotton thread was used as a training tool only among the indoor disciples of the Yang style. It was never before shown to outsiders.

Master Yang warmed up by performing “Grasp Sparrow’s Tail” and “Cloud Hands”; thereupon, he took the cotton thread between his thumb and index finger and asked: “Who has the strength of a thousand pounds to tear this piece of thread in half?” Upon hearing this, Liu sneered at Master Yang while sending one of his disciples out to take the challenge. The disciple grabbed the other end of the cotton thread and asked: “When shall we begin?” Master Yang replied by saying: “It is completely up to you.” Following, the disciple fiercely pulled at the thread. Master Yang adhered to his every move. Suddenly the disciple reversed the direction of motion, however, Master Yang, without hesitation, also moved in the same manner.

This went on for several rounds without the disciple being able to tear the thread in two. While the thread was being pulled it remained straight no matter which direction the force was being applied. Liu saw what was occurring and summoned his disciple to step back. After Liu performed several exercises to warm up, he jumped into the air and performed several tornado kicks. Immediately following this, he jumped towards Master Yang as agile as a rabbit and grabbed the other end of the thread. Master Yang was just as agile and moved in the same manner. Without hesitation, Liu jumped back in a retreating maneuover while trying to break the thread; in the same instance, Master Yang followed in Liu’s footsteps preventing the thread from being broken. Afterwards, Liu shot forward as fast as an arrow, then darted to the left and then to the right, moving in all directions. Within all of this motion, both Liu and Master Yang never made contact with each other. The way in which the two moved was similar to a dragon lantern moving in the night. Spectators witnessing the event were astonished by the skill of Yang Cheng Fu. The entire time this was occurring the thread was never broken nor was it even bent. The thread remained straight during the entire match. After a long period of trying to break the thread, Liu was completely out of breath and covered with sweat. Master Yang, on the other hand, was very calm and relaxed without any signs of exhaustion. When the match was over, Liu realized that the skill level of Master Yang was very extraordinary and therefore held a grand banquent in honor of Master Yang. From that day forth, both Liu and Master Yang became very good friends.

In the same way as Master Yang’s grandfather and father did before him, Yang Cheng Fu had developed his skills of understanding energy (Dong Jin) and listening to energy (Ting Jin) to an outstanding skill level. He was able to adhere and yield to every single move his opponent performed and did not expend any energy. Even to this day, the story of how a piece of thread can demonstrate martial skills is told in the martial arts community near the Guang Zhou region. Yang Lu Chan was able to build upon the basics of Chen style old frame Taijiquan and make it more compatible for the common person to learn no matter what his age. At that moment, people termed his style “Yang family Taijiquan”. The Yang style passed through reform and constant improvement during the first two generations of father and son. The formal standardization of the style finally occurred when it came into Yang Cheng Fu’s hands. The postures became wide and comfortable; the structure was strict and demanding; the body was upright and erect; and the movements were harmoniously flowing, light, agile, and rooted.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby johnwang on Mon Sep 26, 2022 7:44 pm

Steve James wrote:Anyway, sweeps aren't permitted in boxing --although they are in muay thai. I'd argue they would be a better example of sticking.

Agree with you 100% on this.

This is the beauty of the "sticky lift". When you sweep your opponent's leg, your opponent riases leg and tries to escape. You sticky on his leg and riase up his leg more than he wants to.

This is why the

- shin bite (downward force),
- foot sweep (45 degree upward force),
- sticky lift (verticle upward force),
- scoop (horizontal force),

should be trained as a package.

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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 26, 2022 9:22 pm

Steve James wrote:Anyway, sweeps aren't permitted in boxing --although they are in muay thai. I'd argue they would be a better example of sticking.

But, I didn't post a boxing clip. I posted a clip of sticking with permitted sweeping in a MMA fight at the bottom of page one and explained, "The difference is "sticking" from a distance without contact" above on this page. Did you miss or ignore them?
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Mon Sep 26, 2022 10:15 pm

I was really trying address to the question of the similarity of sticking in tcc (as I understand it) to western boxing. I do disagree that boxers do it without contact, but I'd just replace sticking or adhering with a different term.

I wasn't paying attention to whether you had included sweeps in your earlier posts. I just used trips/sweeps to support my argument about grappling/throwing and "sticky" legs. It wasn't to contradict you either. When I say western boxing, I mean gloves and no kicks. There were several posts about Adam Minzer and people saw the similarity of how he and others demonstrated sticking. Maybe there are people who can do it, but I've never seen it happen like that in a boxing match. I've seen plenty of people swing, miss, and fall down. It's not a taught technique in western boxing. Wing chun is another story.

I agree 100% that opponents can be affected without touching them. But, what can I say, I think one has to touch the opponent sooner or later. Jmo.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Mon Sep 26, 2022 11:04 pm

Steve James wrote:I was really trying address to the question of the similarity of sticking in tcc (as I understand it) to western boxing. I do disagree that boxers do it without contact, but I'd just replace sticking or adhering with a different term. ...

I agree 100% that opponents can be affected without touching them. But, what can I say, I think one has to touch the opponent sooner or later. Jmo.

:) Ok. However, what about Yang Cheng Fu adhering at a distance without contact, which I posted above? Did you see that?

marvin8 wrote:"Yang Cheng Fu — The Story of a Cotton Thread"

Afterwards, Liu shot forward as fast as an arrow, then darted to the left and then to the right, moving in all directions. Within all of this motion, both Liu and Master Yang never made contact with each other. The way in which the two moved was similar to a dragon lantern moving in the night. Spectators witnessing the event were astonished by the skill of Yang Cheng Fu....

In the same way as Master Yang’s grandfather and father did before him, Yang Cheng Fu had developed his skills of understanding energy (Dong Jin) and listening to energy (Ting Jin) to an outstanding skill level. He was able to adhere and yield to every single move his opponent performed and did not expend any energy. Even to this day, the story of how a piece of thread can demonstrate martial skills is told in the martial arts community near the Guang Zhou region....
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:32 am

It's not at a distance. That's the point of the string.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 27, 2022 5:17 am

Steve James wrote:It's not at a distance. That's the point of the string.

It was at a distance of the one foot cotton thread, which remained taught. The purpose of the thread was to train adhering without contact. A lost training method and skill?

marvin8 wrote:The tactics/skills to stick from a distance: control distance & space, pressure/retreat, footwork, yin, ting, na, and hua.

marvin8 wrote:He told his disciple, Fu Zhong Wen, to go and get out a one foot piece of cotton thread. Young Fu was shocked when he heard this because the cotton thread was used as a training tool only among the indoor disciples of the Yang style. ... While the thread was being pulled it remained straight no matter which direction the force was being applied....

Within all of this motion, both Liu and Master Yang never made contact with each other.... Yang Cheng Fu had developed his skills of understanding energy (Dong Jin) and listening to energy (Ting Jin) to an outstanding skill level. He was able to adhere and yield to every single move his opponent performed and did not expend any energy.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:07 am

Sorry. You're saying "at a distance," then concluding that it was about "adhering without contact." But, in fact, the string was the contact. If it weren't, it wouldn't have been necessary at all. His opponent would have known if YCF had lost him, and with all the acrobatics, an observer wouldn't have been able to tell. Plus, boxers have no strings attached.

"A lost training method?" Naw. Afa YCF, it was a legendary demonstration of his own skill. Afa using strings and sticks, it all depends on the teacher and individual. The string story is not different from the "grasp bird's tail" story: a demonstration of skill, not a training practice. I don't know of anyone who could do YCF's string trick.

Afa the skill of adhering (not letting go), without contact, one is only guessing. Contact, via hand, body, string, or weapon, allows one to listen and understand. So, the more contact, the more definite the interpretation. One can fight in the dark, if one can feel.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:37 am

Steve James wrote:Sorry. You're saying "at a distance," then concluding that it was about "adhering without contact." But, in fact, the string was the contact. If it weren't, it wouldn't have been necessary at all.

No. The story is saying, "The one foot thread was an indoor training tool, remained straight [distance] and YCF adhered while never making contact."

He told his disciple, Fu Zhong Wen, to go and get out a one foot piece of cotton thread. Young Fu was shocked when he heard this because the cotton thread was used as a training tool only among the indoor disciples of the Yang style.... While the thread was being pulled it remained straight no matter which direction the force was being applied.... Within all of this motion, both Liu and Master Yang never made contact with each other.... He was able to adhere and yield to every single move his opponent performed and did not expend any energy.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby Steve James on Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:52 am

The story is saying, "The one foot thread was an indoor training tool, remained straight [distance] and YCF adhered while never making contact."


Fair enough, it was an indoor training method. Now it's not.

Imo, when Fu says they didn't make "contact," it means they stayed the same one foot space apart. That's whether the other master pushed the string or pulled it in any direction. Fwiw, I've heard of placing a short stick belly button to belly button to train push hands. I understand the idea of the string trick. Maybe some of the more advanced students can show videos of them doing the same with a string. Of course, not at YCF's level.
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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby origami_itto on Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:47 am

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Re: zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

Postby johnwang on Tue Sep 27, 2022 12:32 pm

Steve James wrote: :) "Sticking" in western boxing isn't similar to stick or adhere in tcc. Imo, that's because the emphasis is solely on striking.

Sticking can be used in the striking art too.

In the following clip, he uses

1. right hand to touch on his opponent's right wrist.
2. left hand to touch on his opponent's right elbow.
3. right hand to punch on his opponent's face.

Both 1 and 2 are using the sticking principle (temporarily control his opponent's right arm) to set up 3.

Image
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