Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby johnwang on Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:23 pm

The 四路查拳 (4th road Cha Quan) is a high level form in the long fist system. In the begining of this form, this combo is very interested.

- Taiji "cloud hand" is inside out circles (protect center from inside out). The Cha Quan has outside in circles (protect center from outside in).

- Taiji has "brush knee". Cha Quan has similary move with extra "comb hair" adding on it. When you use left hand to parry down your opponent's right arm, since his left arm is still free, it makes sense to use "comb hair" to deflect his left arm before your right hand strike.

What do you think the similarity between long fist and Taiji? Your thought?

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Last edited by johnwang on Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby johnwang on Thu Sep 29, 2022 6:55 pm

Image

Here is the whole form.

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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby Steve James on Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:09 pm

But, then where does Longfist come from?

I agree that tcc must have come from earlier martial arts.
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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby johnwang on Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:31 pm

Steve James wrote:But, then where does Longfist come from?

I agree that tcc must have come from earlier martial arts.

Long fist is the mother of all CMA. I believe Taiji came from long fist.

Here is Chen Taiji 108 Longfist.

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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby yeniseri on Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:36 pm

Taijiquan was influenced by Long Fist!
The historical record states that Chen family left Shanxi Province (Hong Dong district ??? ) and moved to Chenjiagou (Chen village) and that local fistic forms influenced, and was borrowed by the Chen patriarchs and their Li neighbours of that era.
I saw a Hong Dong routine (some years ago ;D ) close to Chen taijiquan that is still being practiced though it has a small audience! I haven't been able to find it for awhile but it does exist.

Mr Sal Canonzieri also shows that taijiquan, when deconstructed, minmic Taizu Changquan. He lays out the sequence of postures and they match almost perfectly ;D

https://ensomartialarts.com/china/taizu-chang-quan/
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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby edededed on Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:29 am

I thought longfist was the basis for almost every northern CMA out there (including taijiquan). Basically longfist is like the ingredients, then everyone changes/adds/removes based on some kind of theme (e.g. taiji: neutralization, xingyi: power, etc.).

Some don't look much like longfist anymore (e.g. bagua), but you can see it change gradually via the styles (e.g. longfist/luohan -> Yin style -> Cheng style, Liang style).

As for the applications - as far as I know, the Chaquan #4 "inside cloud hands" move is used like a block to kick then strike/throw (like arm to neck). The chaquan #4 "brush knee" I believe is like a groin slap. Longfist generally seems to be striking from afar and throwing when close. So that's quite different from taiji, I think. :)
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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby Appledog on Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:04 am

johnwang wrote:The 四路查拳 (4th road Cha Quan) is a high level form in the long fist system. In the begining of this form, this combo is very interested.

- Taiji "cloud hand" is inside out circles (protect center from inside out). The Cha Quan has outside in circles (protect center from outside in).

- Taiji has "brush knee". Cha Quan has similary move with extra "comb hair" adding on it. When you use left hand to parry down your opponent's right arm, since his left arm is still free, it makes sense to use "comb hair" to deflect his left arm before your right hand strike.

What do you think the similarity between long fist and Taiji? Your thought?


So as we see, many moves in Yang's Taijiquan are not found in Chen's but are from longfist or even southern shaolin. One of these is, famously, "hold the ball".

All of the arts are related, of course. Is there a particular similarity you had in mind?
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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby windwalker on Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:22 am

johnwang wrote:What do you think the similarity between long fist and Taiji? Your thought?




My thoughts align with what has been written...


汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan


]一般理解,所謂勁兒,是把本身的神、意、氣集中到一點上,再把這個點運用到某個姿勢上
去。經過長期的鍛煉以後,就會逐漸擴大增長起來,變成一種力。這種力是經過鍛煉取得的,
是後天之拙力。這種力形式大、動量滯、變換遲、動的去路直,在技擊方面用起來,因身形動
作大,運動量較強,因此影響內氣的波動,易於浮躁。這近於長拳的練法和要求。

google translate :)

It is generally understood that the so-called jin refers to concentrating one's own spirit, intention, and qi on one point, and then applying this point to a certain posture.
After long-term exercise, it will gradually expand and grow, becoming a kind of force.
This kind of power is acquired through training, and it is an acquired clumsy power.

This kind of force has a large form, sluggish momentum, slow transformation, and straight movement.
It is used in martial arts. Because of the large body shape and strong movement,
it affects the fluctuation of internal qi and is easy to be impetuous.

This is close to the practice and requirements of Changquan



初練太極拳的人覺得太極拳的練法與上面的練法相似,其實不然。如果按照太極拳的理論要求
,經過一段時間的鍛煉,逐漸把理論與姿勢結合起來,就會很明顯地感覺出來,上面的練法和
要求是與太極拳不同的。練習太極拳的要求,是把本身的神、意、氣化合歸一,融合在一起,
形成一種輕靈圓活之勁兒。這種勁兒是以氣、意混之為主。它的本質是氣,對它的要求是空、
虛、散,而不是集聚的。這就是太極勁兒,又叫做先天勁兒。

google translate

People who are new to Taijiquan think that the practice of Taijiquan is similar to the above practice, but it is not.

If you follow the theoretical requirements of Taijiquan, after a period of training, and gradually combine the theory with posture, you will clearly feel that the above practice methods and requirements are different from Taijiquan.

The requirement of practicing Taijiquan is to unify and integrate one's own spirit, mind and qi into one, forming a kind of light, round and lively energy.
This kind of energy is mainly based on the mixture of qi and meaning.

Its essence is qi, and its requirements are emptiness, emptiness, and dispersal, rather than gathering. This is Tai Chi strength, also known as innate strength


Even if some movements may "look" similar they are based on a different idea, developing different skill sets...


Others may find different... :)

Many CMA teachers teach taiji as an adjunct to their main syllabus what ever it may be....
In some cases what then happens in so doing, there comes a time where they or others may not find there is not much differences between it and their main style....
In most cases because of the focus of taiji the practice tends to enhance any other art while the revers is not necessarily true,
even historically among noted teachers...


just completed a 5yr study of this.
Concluding in my own path indeed, the differences of what might be called the deeper levels could not be overcome....
for a variety of reasons.

My thoughts, my experience. :)
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:50 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Similarity between long fist and Taiji

Postby johnwang on Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:00 pm

Appledog wrote: Is there a particular similarity you had in mind?

The 8 basic stance are exactly the same and used in both systems. There exist no single stance in Taiji that doesn't exist in long fist.
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