how are YOU working on fangsong

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how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:25 pm

if you are
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby GrahamB on Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:23 am

It's really hard to be "song" if your body is already tight and resisting. Mobility/stretching exercises are very useful in this regard.

"resistance is a symptom of the way things are."
Last edited by GrahamB on Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:49 am

lol..

in basically everything i do I'm 'working' on it to some degree or other. directly or indirectly it's there.
it's the first thing to seek and the last, if you lose it you'r lost. the principles must endure, right.

from the most basic thing/ exercise to the most complex ; which I guess is sparring in whatever format.
I take it this relates to martial arts; you can never be so sure.

Most tcc systems wil have a set of basics or loosening - the naming doesn't really matter. could be a 'qi gong' set, ji ben gong. whatever.
it will involve some degree of mobility and stretching, usually in combination with some other factors. As this can vary so much, it's hard to be specific.

But yes, this kind of work is common across disciplines MA or not. Staying tense isn't an option particularly in practical and or sporting terms; though incredibly I've crossed hands with Aikido people at seminars, that were really tense (relative to my experience); go figure.
Last edited by cloudz on Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby greytowhite on Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:08 am

All the time. I was giving my fiancée a hug the other day and relaxed after squeezing her. She was effortlessly uprooted and found it very unsettling. I find moments throughout the day to release tension. It's like a small check of myself and then attempt to release. When I'm walking around, particularly up stairs, I attempt to root from the dantian and use integrated arm swings in conjunction with my gait. It's a constant feedback loop between daily action and my body method.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 02, 2022 12:25 pm

Correct form and exercises combined with structural pushing exercises
It not so much what you do but what you don’t do
Most of the pushing I see that a lot of people think is realistic is taking them away from sung
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:24 pm

mobility
still working on it. been "naturally" not mobile for so long.
martial arts
maybe one day I'll get back to it. only "push hands" is incidental push pull in football/soccer. which is more "honest" imho. no hippies yelling at each other.

relaxed after squeezing her. She was effortlessly uprooted
whoa, this is great! so you kind of fajin without intending it.

taking them away from sung
I feel like I "relax" downward, but still with too much tension...

doing solo form, I just follow the "qi" feeling, which sort of helps find "song" and vice versa, but suspect I still am wayyy too tense (definitely too stiff and inflexible)
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby Appledog on Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:06 pm

everything wrote:if you are


Audi from Yang Forums wrote:
Wu Yingfeng said: "'Song'" is a specialized term that internal schools have. What they call "song" indicates the state of carrying out a reasonable movement of the body with the least inherent waste of physical energy.


I used concepts similar to these when I first practiced Tai chi on and off for about ten years. At my first seminar with Masters Yang Zhendou and Yang Jun, I was quite surprised because it was evident from their movement and explanations that they did not use this definition at all, but were doing something else.

Master Yang Zhenduo repeatedly demonstrated what he meant by "song" by putting his arms in the final position of a posture and then putting more energy into them to open the joints and visibly make the position of the arms longer and larger. I remember one of other attendees remarking during a break at how odd it was to hear this movement translated as "to relax," since the translation seemed to indicate almost the exact opposite feeling of what Grandmaster Yang was demonstrating. His recommended movement required more muscular energy rather than less.


It is somewhat backwards to practice something for 20 years only to finally understand it; this does not make logical sense, since if this was the case how did the exercise become invented, if no one can understand it prior to it's long and dedicated practice? So, the rationale is that song has and always meant an extension of the body. It is like pulling the kink out of a rope; first you taught the string, the suddenly the knot will come out with a pop. Clicks, pops, kinks, flat surfaces, and so forth indicate flaws, or closures, which can be opened with slow and gentle range of motion exercises like tai chi. This makes the right kind of qigong a great warmup for this, or just the form. That is it's purpose. It is directly connected with smooth and even motion with no breaks, starts or stops. If you see someone doing the form and there are sudden stops, starts, or changes of direction, by definition they are not song.

I don't think there's anything truly special about song, it's kind of like an underlying quality -- you could just as easily say "without stops or starts". But then you need to make special exceptions like "externally leaning, internally straight" or "externally stop, internally continue"... and things become a mess. Things become a mess like this when you have to pass down what you learned from 20 years experience instead of hearing it from a da shi. The above quote is from the Yang family, whose transmission is genuine, so I think that is a pretty valuable thing for them to have said and for us to hear.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:17 pm

how are YOU working on fangsong?

if you are?
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:42 pm

Lol which word goes with which thumb?

Or is this a “Jimmy” answer to the question?
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby Quigga on Mon Oct 03, 2022 3:38 am

Sinking and flying... Always a combination of opposites. Sometimes I like to imagine standing in a column of golden light where there is no gravity, yet I'm still standing lol.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:08 am

Appledog wrote:
everything wrote:if you are


Audi from Yang Forums wrote:
Wu Yingfeng said: "'Song'" is a specialized term that internal schools have. What they call "song" indicates the state of carrying out a reasonable movement of the body with the least inherent waste of physical energy.


I used concepts similar to these when I first practiced Tai chi on and off for about ten years. At my first seminar with Masters Yang Zhendou and Yang Jun, I was quite surprised because it was evident from their movement and explanations that they did not use this definition at all, but were doing something else.

Master Yang Zhenduo repeatedly demonstrated what he meant by "song" by putting his arms in the final position of a posture and then putting more energy into them to open the joints and visibly make the position of the arms longer and larger. I remember one of other attendees remarking during a break at how odd it was to hear this movement translated as "to relax," since the translation seemed to indicate almost the exact opposite feeling of what Grandmaster Yang was demonstrating. His recommended movement required more muscular energy rather than less.


It is somewhat backwards to practice something for 20 years only to finally understand it; this does not make logical sense, since if this was the case how did the exercise become invented, if no one can understand it prior to it's long and dedicated practice? So, the rationale is that song has and always meant an extension of the body. It is like pulling the kink out of a rope; first you taught the string, the suddenly the knot will come out with a pop. Clicks, pops, kinks, flat surfaces, and so forth indicate flaws, or closures, which can be opened with slow and gentle range of motion exercises like tai chi. This makes the right kind of qigong a great warmup for this, or just the form. That is it's purpose. It is directly connected with smooth and even motion with no breaks, starts or stops. If you see someone doing the form and there are sudden stops, starts, or changes of direction, by definition they are not song.

I don't think there's anything truly special about song, it's kind of like an underlying quality -- you could just as easily say "without stops or starts". But then you need to make special exceptions like "externally leaning, internally straight" or "externally stop, internally continue"... and things become a mess. Things become a mess like this when you have to pass down what you learned from 20 years experience instead of hearing it from a da shi. The above quote is from the Yang family, whose transmission is genuine, so I think that is a pretty valuable thing for them to have said and for us to hear.


well that's interesting; because like some other terms - it seems to have picked up more than one usage and meaning...

I spoke about this before when i cited the character of the pine tree on this very board in some discussion a few years ago.
That's the character that's in a Nei gong book translated by Tom Bisio

It describes a pine tree covered in snow - the inference being the potential of the tree to spring back to its natural state. I took that as i kind of elastic quality. stretching out ?
edit. the term springiness is probably best for that character.

The whole thing is never so clear cut. You still want that quality - but it's maybe more about stretching out the fascia and tendons. The muscles still to be heavy, released and 'relaxing' downwards. 'hanging' off the bones and the rest of the connective tissues.. breath out helps with that. But yes, extended positions will add tension.

this is why that kind of can Yang style is relatively tensile compared to your typical CMC style.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby Bao on Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:22 am

Appledog wrote:
everything wrote:if you are


Audi from Yang Forums wrote:
Wu Yingfeng said: "'Song'" is a specialized term that internal schools have. What they call "song" indicates the state of carrying out a reasonable movement of the body with the least inherent waste of physical energy.


I used concepts similar to these when I first practiced Tai chi on and off for about ten years. At my first seminar with Masters Yang Zhendou and Yang Jun, I was quite surprised because it was evident from their movement and explanations that they did not use this definition at all, but were doing something else.

Master Yang Zhenduo repeatedly demonstrated what he meant by "song" by putting his arms in the final position of a posture and then putting more energy into them to open the joints and visibly make the position of the arms longer and larger. I remember one of other attendees remarking during a break at how odd it was to hear this movement translated as "to relax," since the translation seemed to indicate almost the exact opposite feeling of what Grandmaster Yang was demonstrating. His recommended movement required more muscular energy rather than less.


It is somewhat backwards to practice something for 20 years only to finally understand it; this does not make logical sense, since if this was the case how did the exercise become invented, if no one can understand it prior to it's long and dedicated practice? So, the rationale is that song has and always meant an extension of the body.
...
The above quote is from the Yang family, whose transmission is genuine, so I think that is a pretty valuable thing for them to have said and for us to hear.


Can't really agree with "Audi" that what Yang Zhenduo meant was to put in more muscular energy. He merely showed a way to relax or release into the posture.

I remember many years ago, when I was playing free push hands with a friends. We often played 2,3 or 4 hours without hardly any breaks. We were not very good back then. We would often start out pretty hard, use way too much strength when I think about it. But as we practiced for many hours, we would get tired and not able to use a lot of strength. So we learned to relax more and better just to be able to keep it up.

Once when we were practicing, I sometimes had a hard time pushing him away. But I remember discovering that I could withdraw slightly and then relax deeply to easily push him away. I would relax my breath, sink down and stretch out my limbs as I pushed, stretching out the joints. I used my whole body and back, while at the same time trying to relax deeper and deeper as I pushed him. I did the same thing over and over again. As soon I caught him or myself resisting, I would let go slightly and then I relaxed deeply while pushing into him. My push was too strong so he had no defense.

It didn't take me 20 years, or someone else to teach me or tell me about this. I had been practicing merely about 5 or 7 years back then, or something like that. I discovered by my own how to "release" into my opponent as a consequence of my practice and understanding.

And BTW, this is why you need practical partner practice. You should practice against an opponent, trying to become better maintaining the basic, fundamental principles while practicing against someone else. You should learn how to stay rooted and relaxed while someone tries to push you or drag you around, and to continue to relax against a resisting opponent. When you understand how to maintain your internal alignment, and understand how to "release" into your own actions, you will discover what Tai Chi is supposed to be.
Last edited by Bao on Mon Oct 03, 2022 4:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:19 am

that's just what happens to humans when they wrestle to win - you use strength.
there's nothing really wrong with that.. everyone employs muscle strength - it's the how they do it..

if and when you get in a clinch with someone as strong as you or stronger. you are going to have two choices
employ your strength or wind up in a shit place you don't want to.

yes, every good wrestler knows about rooting inside and out..

anyone who says otherwise is conning themselves first and foremost and by extension conning others that they might actually be any different to the rest of humanity. and wrestling sport, more to the point

because you know; their tai chi relaxing makes them superhuman or alien in nature..

it's the nature of the environment - be it any wrestling style sport or a crazy person rushing you in Mcdonalds.
If you can't get out the way you have to hold them off with a combination of strength and skill until you CAN use some kind of technique or body skill to reach an objective.
and most of the time it's not that pretty.

adrenaline, fear, nerves, not wanting to lose, be hit, land on your ass etc. - normal shit basically.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:42 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby cloudz on Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:31 am

having said that...

i do think focusing on body method/ skill.. the tai chi way, has its advantages :D
over say, focusing on specific techniques.
I'd put lu in the body method/ skill category too in this context, being more than a fixed technique..


there's a nice clip of that guy 'blackhorse tai chi' doing a Chinese wrestling competition. He shows what i mean pretty well in one of those clips.
And also what Bao is basically talking about. (imo)
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: how are YOU working on fangsong

Postby everything on Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:09 am

Quigga wrote:Sinking and flying... Always a combination of opposites. Sometimes I like to imagine standing in a column of golden light where there is no gravity, yet I'm still standing lol.


no gravity ... now that's an interesting hypothetical ...
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