zhan 沾 nian 黏 lian 连 sui 随

[cloudz]

Another thing to consider and think about is this;

as much as i love the sport of boxing..
let's forget about gloves and bags for a moment, and even boxing training.

And think more like CPL and his teachers.

think maybe bare knuckle and what you might do with a similar strike.
you could for example land the first knuckle to the temple - your fist could be at more of an angle; in between horizontal and vertical.
not worry about your elbow. extend to the distance needed.

just a thought

it's not always (or have to be) about the flat parts of the fist, front or back.

[cloudz]

another thing to notice in that clip is how he uses spiral force to neutralise and change for the swing fist.
thought that was worth mentioning given the discussion I'm having (mostly) with myself about spiral force in the other thread...

[wayne hansen]

The only reason I mentioned hitting the bag was to point out those mechanics will damage the shoulder if the hit something immovable

[marvin8]

I would argue that the remedy would be to throw it with more curve, less extended than its shown in the form; the pic of CPL.
The punch in bend the bow is pretty similar shape, but arcs up to down.
like an overhand using a reverse vertical fist rather than being a hooking punch. Elbow seems to be pointing pretty high in that one to me..

The only reason I mentioned hitting the bag was to point out those mechanics will damage the shoulder if the hit something immovable

Boxing punches may be turned over, too. I don't know if it fits your context. However, a more powerful, mechanically sound, spiral punch is the lead hand cross:

1. Start in a bow stance or neutral stance with weight on the front left leg, both feet pointing forward and lead hand to the right side of opponent's head.

2. Fold rear kua, lift front heel, shift weight to the back foot, plant rear heel at a 90°angle, while striking and turning lead hand cross over. You are rolling back (lu), while striking.

You end up in a position similar to "bend the bow." However, it's a different punch. Because, you spiral through, cross the centerline, contact is earlier and it's more powerful.

[origami_itto]

right so either machida does "taijiquan" and same with messi when he knocks someone down / makes them fall into emptiness.

or....

No Machida does fighting with similar skills (e.g., in objectives) and physics (e.g., positions, shifting of weight [see Wang Peisheng explanation]). You are arguing a straw man.

Yes the simulacrum is plane too sea

[marvin8]

right so either machida does "taijiquan" and same with messi when he knocks someone down / makes them fall into emptiness.

or....

No Machida does fighting with similar skills (e.g., in objectives) and physics (e.g., positions, shifting of weight [see Wang Peisheng explanation]). You are arguing a straw man.

Yes the simulacrum is plane too sea

Please post a taiji fighting video that is waaay different, not demo.... I couldn't find one. Although, I posted several taiji fights. And for johnwang, a good, different internal hip throw, foot sweep, etc.

[origami_itto]

[

Yes the simulacrum is plane too sea

Please post a taiji fighting video that is waaay different, not demo.... I couldn't find one. Although, I posted several taiji fights. And for johnwang, a good, different internal hip throw, foot sweep, etc.

That's a straw man.

I am not saying taijiquan is superior in the ring, I'm just saying that these words you're using have specific meaning within context of taijiquan and these things seem similar if you don't understand that taijiquan specific meaning.

For example, you're describing zhan nian Lian sui as things that happen separate from each other. In actual practice, to be effective, you are doing all of them simultaneously.

It's natural to understand things in relation to things that we already understand, but I believe that trying to make taijiquan fit these other systems is doing both a disservice and not getting you any closer to effectively mastering either.

As far as a video, the only person I've ever seen actually fight using taijiquan was myself and I don't usually travel with a film crew.

[marvin8]

Yes the simulacrum is plane too sea

Please post a taiji fighting video that is waaay different, not demo.... I couldn't find one. Although, I posted several taiji fights. And for johnwang, a good, different internal hip throw, foot sweep, etc.

That's a straw man.
I am not saying taijiquan is superior in the ring,

No, it's not. I only requested you post a video. I didn't argue such video or fight existed.

I'm just saying that these words you're using have specific meaning within context of taijiquan and these things seem similar if you don't understand that taijiquan specific meaning.

Right. However, these words also have general meaning outside of taijiquan, which I explained several times. I said there are similar objectives. If you disagree, please quote me and discuss your position, rather than argue a straw man.

For example, you're describing zhan nian Lian sui as things that happen separate from each other. In actual practice, to be effective, you are doing all of them simultaneously.

No. You are arguing a straw man. I did not say they "only happen separately," nor did I say anything about how taijiquan practices them. Others have associated zhan, nian, lian and sui with peng, lu, ji and an movements.

It's natural to understand things in relation to things that we already understand, but I believe that trying to make taijiquan fit these other systems is doing both a disservice and not getting you any closer to effectively mastering either.

No. You appear to be arguing a straw man. I gave examples of what professional fighters do and their objectives. I did not "try to fit taijiquan..."

As far as a video, the only person I've ever seen actually fight using taijiquan was myself and I don't usually travel with a film crew.

I posted several taiji fights including, Real street fight- Oldman Taichi vs Thug.

[Doc Stier]

Straw Man arguments? Maybe. Always a possibility in martial arts discussions. In any case, however, we're still a few clowns short of a circus.

[Quigga]

Honk honk

[origami_itto]

Lawdamercy.gif

Marvin I honestly have no idea what your point is.

[everything]

a Jimmy reply would be good

[marvin8]

Lawdamercy.gif

Marvin I honestly have no idea what your point is.

Your repeated straw man arguments, despite my explanations like above and on page 3. Rather than quote me, you ramble on arguing straw men.

Do you understand the concept of jargon?

Or how a log can be a piece of wood or a record of activity?

The topic is adhere, stick, join and follow, the order of nian and lian in particular. These are skills to know the opponent, their intentions, feel and understand them, while not resisting and not separating with them. These may be common goals in MAs. These words can be used to describe both what professional fighters use in fights and tai chi players use in push hands, however different their training, use and context. A main difference may be that professional fighters use these skills with and without contact. Since per you (and maybe others), taijiquan favors contact.

If you find it helpful, by all means go for it. But in my humble opinion, looking at these clips and claiming they represent anything approaching taijiquan skills is obviously perfectly accurate and reflects a deep and nuanced understanding of the matters being discussed.

Some may find it helpful seeing the skills of adhere, stick, join and follow used against a non-compliant opponent in a fight, although they may be different from the skills used in push hands.

There is no "claim they represent taijiquan." The claim is professional fighters have similar goals and skills that may be described with adhere, stick, join and follow. In the 1st page clips, both Wang Peisheng and Machida get a reaction from their opponent without touch. Machida adds pressing down and foot sweep to finish his opponent.

When professional fighters fight, the engagement starts before contact. Skills similar to adhere, stick, join and follow are used before contact—which may not be the case in taijiquan, as per you it favors contact first.

[everything]

[marvin8]

https://media.tenor.com/gEZo0QQcb_MAAAAd/red-herring-trivia-murder-party.gif

it's people like you who are sending a fine martial art down the toilet.

no wait
you and your special brand of mates in Asia already did that.