Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby RobP3 on Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:06 am

well we share training method across many martial arts.
we take on roles.
when we reduce the set roles and introduce freedoms we move from Live Action Role Play to Live Action; play or not, I guess that's a matter for the moment.


To some extent, depending on the drill. Our aim is usually to make things as free as possible. Obviously any drill has guidelines, otherwise training would be impossible. And scenario type work will call for an element of "acting." Outside of that, I prefer as few restrictions as possible, bar health and safety concerns

Those guys are playing along with MR's game; subconsciously or otherwise. Why do you feel it's important to take that as a negative judgement ?

Because that is your assessment of another person's actions and experience. People react in different ways. The thing I hear a lot from both teachers is "be honest in your actions. Don't pretend" especially in the "softer" aspects of work. It's an important aspect of training.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:07 am

RobP3 wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:Rob you talk about your tai chi but I don’t think you have really told who your teachers were
I always get the impression that it is somehow connected with erle M
Am I wrong


I trained with Erle once. My full history is started around 1981 with John Ding at his very first class. He was then under Chu King Hung in London.
Trained with CKH at a couple of workshops. The JD switched to the Boston Chu's, so trained with Gin Soon quite a few times.
After 10-12 years or so , a group of us left JD and set up our own school. Continued to train with GSC, and hosted his son Vincent in the UK many times.
Also began training with Jim Uglow, largely in EM's Old Yang form
Over the next few years I went all over. So trained workshops with Chen Xiao Wang, George Xu, Yap Cheng Hai, and a few others whose names escape me.
Also hosted Ji Jian Cheng in the UK a couple of times, and had that session with EM too. Met most of the UK TCC crowd, the Watsons, Bob Fermor, Chris Pei, Peter Young (!) etc Oh, and Mike Sigman.
Also trained with people like Dave Turton, Peter Conserdine, Steve Morris, various pressure-point people, etc.
Met Vladimir in 2000 and Mikhail a year or so later.

Cheers
Rob


Interesting taiji history
Regarding sparring


My last taiji teacher's group had what amounted to a fight club in the evenings. during the day visitors would come from various CMA methods,
other taiji gyms ect to pay respects and try their method in a friendly manor with our teacher..

In the evenings some would meet, and go at it....according to their nature and skill .....



In the day with those visiting, most of the time he would interact or occasionally have one of the seniors interact with the visitor.
Very interesting watching....


Remember one time a taiji teacher brought his student....

Our teacher asked one of the seniors to interact with him, using pushhands...only it was more like knock him around....
Each of the seniors interacted in the same way,,,the other teacher's student not doing to well...

When it was my turn,, just followed his movement, neutralize what he tried to do...
He smiled interacting with a foreigner not getting knocked about... :)


In China, IME many in the parks were very eager to interact asking
"friendly or not"

Even "friendly" may not really be.... :-\
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:24 am

RobP3 wrote:
You say it's not empty force ?

There's no "force" involved"

"You say it with the conviction that I think it is... Is that true Rob? Think again.
"empty force" is specifically a cultural label attached to a psychological phenomenon."


This is not from that culture, and is explained entirely in psychological terms.

so it's not that I think what MR is doing is "empty force"; it is psychology

That's what I've been saying all along

- more to the point, a form of mind control.

It's just training, not turning people into zombies

This happens to be the exact same way I categorise Empty force; as psychological/ psychology - that plays out in the use of mind control techniques. Some aspects of these subconscious communications may remain unconscious amongst participants to various degrees.

I agree, that has been my experience. Which is why I am so confident in saying what we do is different

Some things have to do with rapport; we are always leading and following for example in our interactions. Even from the most simple basic principles of rapport. We find things like mirroring and matching, leading and following. Is it any wonder that the soft style interactions of Systema and tai chi lend themselves to situations where people rather choose subconsciously not break rapport they have otherwise been building up.

Yes, all part of the work. But that dynamic exists in any relationship, not just "soft" ones. That's then down to everyone being as honest as possible in training, and why everything has to be tested. But again, these are not separate "magic tricks" they are one thread of the overall work. All of these things you mentioned, and others, are important in dealing with conflict and confrontation.

There is obviously a lot more to this subject.

There is, absolutely
cheers
Rob


It's not a force as in the English use of the word, as translated

As you mentioned Systema is not from the same culture, that uses or developed 凌空勁 Língkōng jìn. "volley power"
commonly referred to as "kong jin"

It's not based on what has been mentioned....mind control, psychological, ect. ;D

Which is why the underling theory is important in understanding what is said to be happening,
until one has developed the skill sets based on it or has felt it...
Not much point in discussing it.....

Whether touched or not, the underling principles are the same, affecting the same processes as outlined by the theory.


Have interacted with a few people in my time, who've said they trained in Systema.... superficially from the many clips, and some of the postings here...
Some of it might look the same the feeling from them was quite different....
more along the lines of some of the Aikido people I've met along the way.. using what they call "Aiki" .

Systema, how ever its explained or theory used,
the differences are quite clear.
Do find it interesting as a practice watching the clips of those who practice it...
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:22 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby everything on Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:43 am

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/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:21 am

Rob did u ever meet a student of mine named Chris Greswell
He had a cousin who took over teaching from Chu
Don’t remember his name
I can see with your background why you sought out Systema
You certainly took the right path
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby RobP3 on Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:41 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Rob did u ever meet a student of mine named Chris Greswell
He had a cousin who took over teaching from Chu
Don’t remember his name
I can see with your background why you sought out Systema
You certainly took the right path


The name does ring a bell - but I'm better with faces than names lol.
I should also mention Dave Nicholson and Rob Murray who I did a lot of work with. Dave had a strong Hsing I background as well as the TCC and boxing
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:32 am

Looked a bit like Roger Moore
He was originally from Redding
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby Giles on Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:23 am

RobP3 wrote: ...People react in different ways. The thing I hear a lot from both teachers is "be honest in your actions. Don't pretend" especially in the "softer" aspects of work. It's an important aspect of training.


That is a very important and valuable tenet. For both students and teachers, and especially for teachers. Even more so when you're teaching some kind of martial art that incorporates 'deep relaxation' or 'softness' in some way (Tai Chi, Aikido, Systema and....??). Then you have to train cooperatively to some extent and 'play', otherwise most people will never overcome the basic startled-nerves, clenched-muscles responses and move into the interesting areas that lie beyond. As you say (well, I paraphrase), in such situations we all have to 'act' and 'play' and 'help each other' to some extent in order to experience and progress. Sometimes it can be a very fine line between 'honest and productive play' and 'unproductive, harmful pretending'. The potential for dishonesty and (self-)deception in this area is huge, above all for teachers. From intentionally manipulating others (of a suitable personality) to keep them small and in awe of you, and yourself on a pedestal, through to creeping self-deception if you stay in a warm and fuzzy comfort zone for too long. All of which will permeate to your students, too. So in addition to one's good intentions as a teacher (hopefully!), you need to keep being honest with yourself and about your own limitations and the limitations of the art. For me at least, that's a constant process, not always easy.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby cloudz on Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:43 am

Ok, story time.. I guess. Some deeper background and backdrop becomes necessary. The Status Quo can be revisited at some point in the future perhaps. Indulge me.

First point is kind of the one I started with;
It's worth remembering that MR is a mystic, so while it is psychology; in current western terminology, his personal beliefs may involve similar ideas and concepts shared by all mystics..

I happen to be "a mystic" as well; I even practiced Hesychasm for a while.
Mystics are quite often, in my view, Universalists. Or should be..
In this case I will say categorically Chi is one and the same as Universal Christ.
People from both the eastern Dogma and the Western will no doubt argue against that position.

No problem, as well they might. This is no more or less than the Perennial Philosophy.
I'm just a follower of that philosophy.

It's nothing particularly mystical when you put it down to the subconscious and the underlying working of all Nature (Tao).
So not necessarily Supernatural but natural. A natural Science, A Social Science even. Dualistic categories are usually one of the first things a mystic needs to deconstruct in their mind.

But essentially It's learning to tap into the primordial stream of information.
Is how I would begin to frame it.

These guys reducing it to body tricks like Mizners Chi film does, do the whole world of Internal Arts a disservice. Martial or not.
Honestly I think how it's been integrated by Eastern martial schools is probably a worse outcome. All knowledge needs updating and integrating with new knowledge, it is 100% as simple as that. Hanging on to tradition and old writing as if it is sacred doesn't work long term. We wind up with a cultural and antiquated relic.

I describe it with "force" because it can have a powerful effect on people as history repeatedly shows.
In the 'ancient times' (lol) there were Mystery schools, both Eastern and Western.
And to some degree military training and know how mingled and crossed with "spiritual power".

The most famous perhaps from the East are the Ninja Clans; from which I was initiated. The stories are the stories and if we are to believe them; in my case a Japanese family moved to the UK in the 1950's who traced a lineage back, a long time, to something called the Blue Mountain Sect. Who in turn traced an origin story back to China.

My first teacher taught me stuff that literally transformed me into a Mystic. It was a kind of indoctrination I guess, his main method was teaching 108 precepts, 3 a week. To describe it as "work", it would be the basic work of transforming the mind I guess. To a certain way of thinking about the world. Nothing particularly sinister or dodgy. It was certainly Cult Like, but with nice benevolent people.

The most famous and successful Western order crossing Military and Mystery School boundaries would be the Knights Templar. Nothing resembling Eastern Martial arts really exists; where mind-body knowledge is integrated in a martial framework.
Today we have remaining things like Free Masonry of Western Mystery Schools, for example. Basically what would be considered at certain times coveted knowledge (the psychology and philosophy teaching).
The Gnostics got written out of Christianity for a reason. Because essentially Gnosticism put the 'power' in the hands of the everyday people.
Rather than the lucky ones who would normally be schooled in 'the mysteries'.

By my way of Reckoning; Jesus was simply another dude trying to spread power to the people.
Like other 'White Hat' Prophets and mystical teachers.

Like anything, knowledge can be used to good ends or dark ends. Suppressing it must be considered in darker territory at times.
It may not even be intentional as the road to hell can often be paved with good ones.

It's only really MR that puts on no touch demonstrations. I didn't get involved in this chat, to criticise or judge him. My goals are aligned with understanding things better; people, situations, myself. Martial arts and the activities there in are nice and fun and stuff. But real violence is abhorrent and men are capable of "evil" acts and activities. Personally I would choose away from no touch martial activities - however they get framed. No touch two person chi gung; yea actually why not. been there done that and it was a cool but essentially harmless thing. Not say psychological (psycho-somatic) martial arts displays are necessarily harmful, but i don't see the helpfulness rising above a breakdown of other martial exercises and drills/ methods and a teaching of straight up the psychology reserved for mentalists and hypnotists (today) essentially.

No doubt there's more to directly reply to. But let's all bask in the Status Quo for a while.
When neither side wants to budge, that's when you call the mediators in.

Returning to the Global story; In the East things stayed Holistic, martial arts systems took on ever more baggage from spiritual and religious systems. In the West however things didn't go that way. Aristotle and Plato is really where things kind of change and diverge for the West. That is a story for the ages !

Now we are left with a tale of two paradigms essentially - in my view at least.
Even still neither is the territory, they are both still maps.
But that is the typical thing a true Mystic would insist on.
In my assessment of what a true Mystic really is; or should be at least.

My teachers teacher (ninja dude) despite all his other learning and knowledge winded up telling stories in my latter years at the school.
Recently i have realised that's the direction I need to go, to write, to tell stories. For kids, for parents, for friends and for family. Integrate and practice and share martial arts a certain way alongside that. I imagine it to be very vanilla, something for everyone but not too bland, god forbid. Where Sciences and Arts meet and greet each other.

Peace be upon us.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:48 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby RobP3 on Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:58 am

It's only really MR that puts on no touch demonstrations.

It isn't. And they aren't demonstrations, it's teaching.

My goals are aligned with understanding things better; people, situations, myself. Martial arts and the activities there in are nice and fun and stuff. But real violence is abhorrent and men are capable of "evil" acts and activities. Personally I would choose away from no touch martial activities - however they get framed.

Me too. Which is why I'm interested in this topic which, for me, is one thread of the overall training. In fact, I used some of this work yesterday during a potential domestic violence situation with a near neighbour. It's just part of the work, that's how we see it and train it. Human psychology and awareness.

It's nothing particularly mystical when you put it down to the subconscious and the underlying working of all Nature (Tao). Yep

cheers
Rob
Last edited by RobP3 on Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:19 am

Giles wrote:
RobP3 wrote: ...People react in different ways. The thing I hear a lot from both teachers is "be honest in your actions. Don't pretend" especially in the "softer" aspects of work. It's an important aspect of training.


That is a very important and valuable tenet. For both students and teachers, and especially for teachers. Even more so when you're teaching some kind of martial art that incorporates 'deep relaxation' or 'softness' in some way (Tai Chi, Aikido, Systema and....??). Then you have to train cooperatively to some extent and 'play', otherwise most people will never overcome the basic startled-nerves, clenched-muscles responses and move into the interesting areas that lie beyond. As you say (well, I paraphrase), in such situations we all have to 'act' and 'play' and 'help each other' to some extent in order to experience and progress. Sometimes it can be a very fine line between 'honest and productive play' and 'unproductive, harmful pretending'. The potential for dishonesty and (self-)deception in this area is huge, above all for teachers. From intentionally manipulating others (of a suitable personality) to keep them small and in awe of you, and yourself on a pedestal, through to creeping self-deception if you stay in a warm and fuzzy comfort zone for too long. All of which will permeate to your students, too. So in addition to one's good intentions as a teacher (hopefully!), you need to keep being honest with yourself and about your own limitations and the limitations of the art. For me at least, that's a constant process, not always easy.


Atheletes and martial artists use all kinds of equipment to train. Sometimes the only piece of equipment that will do the trick is another human body. You really don't want to have your equipment fighting back when you're trying to isolate specific skills and conditioning. You may as well have people come up and fuck with your feet while you're doing a bench press.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:35 am

cloudz wrote:Ok, story time.. I guess. Some deeper background and backdrop becomes necessary. The Status Quo can be revisited at some point in the future perhaps. Indulge me.

First point is kind of the one I started with;
It's worth remembering that MR is a mystic, so while it is psychology; in current western terminology, his personal beliefs may involve similar ideas and concepts shared by all mystics..

I happen to be "a mystic" as well; I even practiced Hesychasm for a while.
Mystics are quite often, in my view, Universalists. Or should be..
In this case I will say categorically Chi is one and the same as Universal Christ.
People from both the eastern Dogma and the Western will no doubt argue against that position.

No problem, as well they might. This is no more or less than the Perennial Philosophy.
I'm just a follower of that philosophy.

It's nothing particularly mystical when you put it down to the subconscious and the underlying working of all Nature (Tao).
So not necessarily Supernatural but natural. A natural Science, A Social Science even. Dualistic categories are usually one of the first things a mystic needs to deconstruct in their mind.

But essentially It's learning to tap into the primordial stream of information.
Is how I would begin to frame it.

These guys reducing it to body tricks like Mizners Chi film does, do the whole world of Internal Arts a disservice. Martial or not.
Honestly I think how it's been integrated by Eastern martial schools is probably a worse outcome. All knowledge needs updating and integrating with new knowledge, it is 100% as simple as that. Hanging on to tradition and old writing as if it is sacred doesn't work long term. We wind up with a cultural and antiquated relic.

I describe it with "force" because it can have a powerful effect on people as history repeatedly shows.
In the 'ancient times' (lol) there were Mystery schools, both Eastern and Western.
And to some degree military training and know how mingled and crossed with "spiritual power".

The most famous perhaps from the East are the Ninja Clans; from which I was initiated. The stories are the stories and if we are to believe them; in my case a Japanese family moved to the UK in the 1950's who traced a lineage back, a long time, to something called the Blue Mountain Sect. Who in turn traced an origin story back to China.

My first teacher taught me stuff that literally transformed me into a Mystic. It was a kind of indoctrination I guess, his main method was teaching 108 precepts, 3 a week. To describe it as "work", it would be the basic work of transforming the mind I guess. To a certain way of thinking about the world. Nothing particularly sinister or dodgy. It was certainly Cult Like, but with nice benevolent people.

The most famous and successful Western order crossing Military and Mystery School boundaries would be the Knights Templar. Nothing resembling Eastern Martial arts really exists; where mind-body knowledge is integrated in a martial framework.
Today we have remaining things like Free Masonry of Western Mystery Schools, for example. Basically what would be considered at certain times coveted knowledge (the psychology and philosophy teaching).
The Gnostics got written out of Christianity for a reason. Because essentially Gnosticism put the 'power' in the hands of the everyday people.
Rather than the lucky ones who would normally be schooled in 'the mysteries'.

By my way of Reckoning; Jesus was simply another dude trying to spread power to the people.
Like other 'White Hat' Prophets and mystical teachers.

Like anything, knowledge can be used to good ends or dark ends. Suppressing it must be considered in darker territory at times.
It may not even be intentional as the road to hell can often be paved with good ones.

It's only really MR that puts on no touch demonstrations. I didn't get involved in this chat, to criticise or judge him. My goals are aligned with understanding things better; people, situations, myself. Martial arts and the activities there in are nice and fun and stuff. But real violence is abhorrent and men are capable of "evil" acts and activities. Personally I would choose away from no touch martial activities - however they get framed. No touch two person chi gung; yea actually why not. been there done that and it was a cool but essentially harmless thing. Not say psychological (psycho-somatic) martial arts displays are necessarily harmful, but i don't see the helpfulness rising above a breakdown of other martial exercises and drills/ methods and a teaching of straight up the psychology reserved for mentalists and hypnotists (today) essentially.

No doubt there's more to directly reply to. But let's all bask in the Status Quo for a while.
When neither side wants to budge, that's when you call the mediators in.

Returning to the Global story; In the East things stayed Holistic, martial arts systems took on ever more baggage from spiritual and religious systems. In the West however things didn't go that way. Aristotle and Plato is really where things kind of change and diverge for the West. That is a story for the ages !

Now we are left with a tale of two paradigms essentially - in my view at least.
Even still neither is the territory, they are both still maps.
But that is the typical thing a true Mystic would insist on.
In my assessment of what a true Mystic really is; or should be at least.

My teachers teacher (ninja dude) despite all his other learning and knowledge winded up telling stories in my latter years at the school.
Recently i have realised that's the direction I need to go, to write, to tell stories. For kids, for parents, for friends and for family. Integrate and practice and share martial arts a certain way alongside that. I imagine it to be very vanilla, something for everyone but not too bland, god forbid. Where Sciences and Arts meet and greet each other.

Peace be upon us.


All I'm going to say here is that my experience with mystery schools and western hermeticism differs greatly from what you've written here. But then I wasn't initiated into a Ninja clan so... maybe that's the thing.

Probably chief among the differences is that I've come to realize/believe that we're all one entity attempting to experience and understand itself through multiple perspectives. I tend to view injuring others physically or psychologically as directly harming myself as well.

The one thing I will clear up is about the gnostics. They were very much a mystery school.

The sunday school version of Christianity most of us in the west are force fed from a young age is simply that, basic stories for children to help keep them from being so horrible.

Some people would never get beyond that, they stay in sky daddy zone their whole life and that's perfectly fine and acceptable and useful for them and for us. These are the people that say things like "IF there wasn't a God you could rape and kill all you want". Yes, I do rape and kill all I want, which is to say not at all, and I don't understand why you need a father figure in the clouds to keep you from doing it.

The people that start to question these stories would be initiated into the greater mysteries to the extent that they were capable of making practical use of them. The deeper the mystery, the more was required morally from the aspirant as they start providing a great deal of power and freedom, You realize you CAN rape and kill all you want.

Bishop Irraneous was the head honcho for the largest Christian sect at the time. There were also sub sects that had (among others) each fastened on to one of the synoptic gospels as competing scriptures. Give them a looksee, they have some fundamental differences.

Then there were also the gnostics with their own gospels and interpretations. Christianity was under attack. Irreneous felt that the only right course of action was to consolidate, so he began a campaign of bringing them together.

Regarding the gnostics, he felt they were too elitist and they were confusing people and excluding people from full participation, so he really started pushing for the simple version and eliminating the mystery traditions. In the end, he won out.

For a great deal of detail and information, dates and names and places, letters detailing the politics, I recommend Elaine Pagel's body of work, particularly "The Gnostic Gospels"
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby cloudz on Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:38 am

Rob; ok I don't watch a lot of Systema these days, my recollection was of not seeing many others do it who are his students. I think I have seen other branches. But point taken it's more widespread.

again with semantics though, it seems your main concern. If we ask what he is teaching, we get an answer 'psychology'.
what is this psychology exactly ?

I kept going on about magic didn't I. Well illusion is another part.
Is it interesting that there are 8 types of magic. It is to me when you have been obsessed in the past with 5 elements and 8 gates :)

every king had a wizard.

Ninjas amongst other things were illusionists. In so much as they understood the science and learnt the arts to what suited their objectives.

the 8 types are.

abjuration
conjuration
divination
enchantment
evocation
illusion
necromancy
transmutation


Maybe it's a dick thing to say.. But if you are going to claim something is training "something"(psychology), it would be nice to get the substance rather than the dressing only.

It's hard though.. I imagine if you get the question why do you do it like that - with no contact at all; and it's hard to find substance beyond 'the mundane' (what others are training anyway). eg. sensitivity, awareness, evasion, timing, physical skills and so on.

when you put it like that; it just comes back to LARP, which you denied.
When we ask others to be honest with themselves, we need to follow our own advice right ?
Just saying.
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby cloudz on Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:56 am

Itto, thank you for the insight
I know I have tons of research and knowledge untapped in these fields. I'm certainly no expert on the gnostics or religion. My thing (speciality if you like) is more about the Logic and Reason of Rhetoric. A language of communication. As well as Metaphysical considerations and so on.

I have taken brain tests, and I basically have the brain of a lawyer, even though I have never studied a day of it in my life. 'Law', Philosophy and Psychology are where I'm most comfortable.

My 'adventure', so to speak was pretty different in many ways. some things I can put my finger on. Other times, well we all struggle to make sense of 'everything' so to speak. You probably have to be slightly crazy to even try.. In my case I really had no idea what I was getting into when I walked into that school and took my first tai chi class. But I may as well have been a duck to water. Spiritually I felt at home, and I had never experienced that before - I walked in there an Atheist and Left as a Mystic after having my first brush with Divine Madness. They used two main vehicles; Taoism and Zen B.

I would describe it a bit like Gutei's finger Zen. Harsh, slower but bloody effective when it kicked in. It literally felt like I had broken my head on the lathe of heaven.. These days I have heard some people calling it DNA Activation; there might be something to that. But Kundalini Awakenings are not for the faint hearted.

One of my favourite books for example was Zen in the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. For me it began with the Sophists and Rhetoric. I was kind of already there and when I read that book it kind of confirmed a lot of what I already was feeling, thinking and talking about on forums at the time.

Think about the magic Jesus pulled. Religion gets problematic when people get literal over it.
I take your point; As like today, all schools would not be created equal or even have aligned objectives.

I wanted to set a scene that showed through history how the world generally worked; much like today. People change, but they also don't change, if you catch my drift. Politics, religion, media, huge corporations.. They all have their creed and cult. And as always it's about who controls the outcomes to their interest rather than against their interest.

The same Psychology works on different levels. Carl Jung is another guy I need to get more familiar with ..
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Dec 02, 2022 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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cloudz
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Re: Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

Postby origami_itto on Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:59 am

cloudz wrote:Rob; ok I don't watch a lot of Systema these days, my recollection was of not seeing many others do it who are his students. I think I have seen other branches. But point taken it's more widespread.

again with semantics though, it seems your main concern. If we ask what he is teaching, we get an answer 'psychology'.
what is this psychology exactly ?

I kept going on about magic didn't I. Well illusion is another part.
Is it interesting that there are 8 types of magic. It is to me when you have been obsessed in the past with 5 elements and 8 gates :)

every king had a wizard.

Ninjas amongst other things were illusionists. In so much as they understood the science and learnt the arts to what suited their objectives.

the 8 types are.

abjuration
conjuration
divination
enchantment
evocation
illusion
necromancy
transmutation


Maybe it's a dick thing to say.. But if you are going to claim something is training "something"(psychology), it would be nice to get the substance rather than the dressing only.

It's hard though.. I imagine if you get the question why do you do it like that - with no contact at all; and it's hard to find substance beyond 'the mundane' (what others are training anyway). eg. sensitivity, awareness, evasion, timing, physical skills and so on.

when you put it like that; it just comes back to LARP, which you denied.
When we ask others to be honest with themselves, we need to follow our own advice right ?
Just saying.


Dude, you're accusing him of LARPing when he's studying and teaching material that is still used in combatives training and going on about your Ninja skills?

Like you realize there was never a person in japan that called themselves a ninja until the 1900s,. Ninja isn't even a japanese word!

And the magic stuff? Dude... that's all debunked myth. It's as LARP as LARP can be.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
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