The real reason Taijiquan has such a bad rap.

[origami_itto]

I started a thread in the facebook "Yang Family Tai Chi Group" that mentioned Panhou killed someone for surprising him and being rude.

This is just one of the conversations that came out of it.
I am blue.

[yeniseri]

There are some very weird people on tai chi sites so I can see how (based on responses) the greater public believes the bad rap about taijiquan.

BTW- Your site has some great comments, most of the time. Congratulations.
Ip.s. I shall remain nameless despite my name

[johnwang]

Do people realize that Taiji is the only IMA that talks about "no contact combat". IMA such as XingYi and Bagua never talk about "no contact combat". Why?

- XingYi guys talks about punch.
- Bagua guys talks about throw.
- Taiji guys talk about push.

Why there are such a big difference?

[origami_itto]

Do people realize that Taiji is the only IMA that talks about "no contact combat". IMA such as XingYi and Bagua never talk about "no contact combat". Why?

- XingYi guys talks about punch.
- Bagua guys talks about throw.
- Taiji guys talk about push.

Why there are such a big difference?

Taiji guys talk about all that and kicking and locking too, man. What are you on about?

[GrahamB]

Tai Chi has a bad rep because it's a great martial art with incredibly low standards.

Plus it has been infused with the Wuxia "marital heroes" culture of magic powers and empty force.

You only have to watch some of the Wuxia films to get a sense of where this all comes from in Tai Chi. E.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUi7Iar6Lrc



PLOT TWIST: What if this was what Tai Chi originally was! It's only modern people who have got the stupid idea it's for fighting people! Food for thought.

[marvin8]

Tai Chi has a bad rep because it's a great martial art with incredibly low standards.

Plus it has been infused with the Wuxia "marital heroes" culture of magic powers and empty force.

You only have to watch some of the Wuxia films to get a sense of where this all comes from in Tai Chi. E.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUi7Iar6Lrc

Similar to 3:31, a "no contact," more practical MMA drill:

INSTANT MMA
1 month ago


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE9jB-p3WBk

[wayne hansen]

Yes some people purporting to do tai chi have low standards
However just because you call it tai chi that does not make it so

[Subitai]

Well other than the most obvious answer. Which is there are MANY Tai Chi Charlatans out there pretending to be fighters and having their arses handed to them. Probably the #1 reason.

I think Graham is onto it... Except it's NOT JUST TAI CHI but Kung Fu in general.

I.e. the movies and perception of almost supernatural skill is a problem.

A Tai Chi (or kung fu ) man in general does not get the same amount of forgiveness or Leeway (freedom of..) in receiving strikes or damage as ANY OTHER STYLE DOES. No, if it does not work on the 1st exchange, the 1st scrap, the 1st touching of hands... well then Tai Chi obviously sucks.

In other words, if you don't KUNG FU someone immediately in a fight on the very 1st exchange. Then obviously Kung fu (Tai ji) doesn't work.

Conversely:

* A boxer gets multiple rounds to set up his opponent. For example, a boxer notices in his opponent a weakness that he can exploit and it may take him several rounds to achieve his goal. But ultimately (if he does succeed) he is lauded as a good boxer.

But I ask, how many exchanges did the boxer go through? How many different punches did he throw? How many combinations? How many MISSED OR WERE JUST INEFFECTIVE?

Regardless, all is forgiven and he's seen as a good fighter if he can just achieve his goals.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NOW I ASK ? JUST AS AN EXAMPLE,

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Lets say I train "Step Parry and Punch " from Tai Chi in many ways. I learn how to set it up and respond to my opponent appropriately. I train power , I spar it and do everything a good fighter should. I also have other tools but I definitely have train this for a purpose.

I now schedule a fight... on the day of and during the fight: I respond to my chances and set it up and mabe I do land my punches a few times.

But if the guy is not KUNG FU ' D and spits blood immediately. Well then Tai Chi sucks. Right?

=============================================================================
It's stupid standards and perceptions by people who don't really know Fighting is ALL.

Of course on this forum i'm just preaching to the choir right?

[origami_itto]

There is an expectation of perfection in Kung Fu circles in general I think. People think if there is any indication they aren't invincible then obviously people will know they are full of shit.

So they don't even risk situations where they might not be perfect. Look at Adam Mizner, perfect example, ten years ago some dude pushes him back a bit and all you hear for weeks is "SEE HE'S NOT INVINCIBLE"

Now, granted, he presents himself as an invincible Buddha-Jesus so maybe a little criticism to take him down a notch is warranted, but it's just indicative of the mindset as a whole, honestly.

MMA fighters in general don't take losing a round or submitting as a sign they need to give up everything they've learned and kow tow to a new master. They figure out what went wrong and work on it.

So there's the first problem, afraid to pressure test. Being too precious with it. Why not show people what all the training is for every once in a while. This isn't feudal China no need to be so secretive.

[johnwang]

- Taiji guys talk about push.

Taiji guys talk about all that and kicking and locking too, man. What are you on about?

Look at Adam Mizner, perfect example, ten years ago some dude pushes him back a bit and all you hear for weeks is "SEE HE'S NOT INVINCIBLE".

This is what I'm trying to say. You push me, I borrow your pushing force, and jump back. You didn't win. I didn't lose. What's the big deal about "pushing"?

[windwalker]

Don't agree with "taiji has such a bad rap"

Other then one's self who would one have to prove it to...

in the 70s, CMA had a bad rap.. still does

As a young teenager, later a young GI in the US Army I would have many encounters with people who practiced different styles correcting what I felt were misconceptions about CMA.

In the traditional way the style Tibetan white crane spoke through me in answer to their questions.

Answered mine and their questions....

taiji is a method,,part of CMA, classed as IMA

With Taiji it's the same..although much older now....
In some aspects it's harder, because the method and expectations are quite different .
The testing is kind of the same although what is tested also different...

In Beijing, saw someone practicing what I felt was the same taiji as my teacher taught...In my limited Chinese, I made it known that I liked what the gentleman was practicing...He wanted to test though the customary "push hand" format..

He started a little rough, and managed to get tossed to the ground...He then mentioned this is not the taiji of my teacher....
Said "ok"

He tried again, much more reserved in his approach...
remarking "yes, this feels like your teacher's taiji"

In Taiwan, also met people testing, and being tested....
all according to level and ability..

Myself what I look for, consistency between method, usage...
what one says they practice, what they actually use, and can do.


For most talking about MMA,,,back in the day "full contact" competitions
Not a place to test whether something works or not....

If one has determined what they do works...they might consider the level at which it works at and why...
Just as for many in meeting CMA/ IMA practitioners, would be a mistake to feel one can't be hurt by them....
depending on the one that one happens to run into...

[windwalker]

- Taiji guys talk about push.

Taiji guys talk about all that and kicking and locking too, man. What are you on about?

Look at Adam Mizner, perfect example, ten years ago some dude pushes him back a bit and all you hear for weeks is "SEE HE'S NOT INVINCIBLE".

This is what I'm trying to say. You push me, I borrow your pushing force, and jump back. You didn't win. I didn't lose.
What's the big deal about "pushing"?

You might find this interesting

太极推手“听劲儿”之简说 悟拳随想(一三六)
2017.9.22.
在太极推手的很多场合常听到推手“听劲儿”的话题。有的用“顶扁丢抗，沾粘连随”说听劲儿; 有的用“肢体感觉”说听劲儿;有的在“互相缠绕搅动中”说听劲儿;有的在“比力大力小中”说听劲儿;还 有的经常玩推手，却不知什么叫听劲儿。凡是种种，不胜枚举，一词众说。
王宗岳有“由着熟渐悟懂劲，由懂劲阶及神明”之经论，笔者经过多年太极推手的修炼与体悟， 简要说说我对太极推手“听劲儿”的理解。
太极推手“听劲儿”的前提是“懂劲”，不懂劲莫妄谈听劲。懂劲的基础是着熟，没有五年八年 的拳龄且循老拳论的修炼也谈不上着熟和懂劲。
什么叫着熟?打拳知道太极的理了，每招每式知道为什么了，八法五步十三势了然于心了，
方谓着熟。
什么叫懂劲?所谓懂劲，也众说一词。比较合经典拳理的说法是悟懂了“动静、阴阳、虚实、 开合”之拳理是谓懂劲。
笔者的体悟是:要论懂劲，必须明白什么叫太极劲。太极劲是什么呢?各⻔各派也是各执一 理、各说一词。我们修炼的是杨式汪脉，汪脉的理论:“神、意、气是太极的真正内劲儿”。所以， 修炼太极，不明白修炼神意气，不把汪脉的“松、散、通、空”的知己之功上身入道，就很难说已 经懂劲，汪脉的懂劲完全摆脱了力的纠葛，太极推手与力没有丝毫关系，而是“神意气化合”、“意 到气到，气到劲到”的学问。
笔者认为，修炼太极未达到如上懂劲的层次，莫说“听劲儿”。所以，“顶扁丢抗”不能叫听劲 儿，是不懂劲儿;“沾粘连随”，也不能叫听劲儿，是会听劲儿者的应对方略; “比力大力小” 、“缠绕 搅动”更谈不上听劲儿，那是互相较劲儿。
听劲儿，应该是层次、境界高的功夫者的话题，因为他们会听劲儿，听劲听得灵，毫无撕拉 扭扯之形，“拿人如薅草”，功夫是高层次、高境界的水平，因此，他们说听劲儿，能说到点子上 且令你心服口服;
听劲儿，应该是师父训练徒弟的话题。师父会听劲，才能准确判断徒弟的太极劲儿上没上 手，对不对，是在哪个层次上，从而给与恰到好处的指点、引导，在听劲调劲中培养训练徒弟;
听劲儿，也应该是师兄弟之间的切磋的话题。师兄弟在切磋中，互相印证有没有太极劲儿， 互相体悟是否是师父的太极劲儿;
听劲儿，不是离开互相搭手的夸夸其谈，也不是互相搭手没完没了地争雄⻆力，而是在搭手 ⻅功夫中的三言两语;
听劲儿，不是只会教拳，不会推手的“老师”的话题，他非要说听劲儿或说用劲儿，也是张冠 李戴，无的放矢，不懂装懂。......
听劲儿，“‘听’是一种‘劲’，一种‘定’，一种‘静’”(朱春煊语)，是太极推手制敌的先决条件，只 有具备听劲儿的本领，在推手中方可得机得势、便利随心、自由圆活、从心所欲:或以柔克刚，或 后发先制，或引劲落空，或借力打力......
听劲儿，是太极推手功夫进步的阶梯和法宝，师徒之间，师兄弟之间，拳友之间经常以真正
的听劲儿研习太极推手，会收到教学相⻓、互相促进、共同提高的功效，都会大大缩短进入太极
高级殿堂的时间和里程。
听劲儿，与太极功夫相依相伴、一路同行，也有初级、高级之分别。太极初层功夫的初级听 劲儿是“肌肤听劲儿”，在双方的肌肤的接触中，以“沾粘连随”之功夫手制服“顶扁丢抗”之病手。 功夫高深者，会准确判断对方的劲路:“接点不接面”，“打点不打人”，拿其劲端打其劲源，不妄动， 不纠缠，搭手走人，立竿⻅影......;太极高层功夫的高级听劲儿是“心法听劲儿”，双方欲推手，“无 形无相、应物自然”的高境界者，不用搭手或在搭手中手接心不接就能够十分准确地判断出对方的 心理动态而在变幻莫测之中让对方站立不稳、拔根而走，其推手效果精彩到令人不可思议又妙不 可言的神奇。
总之，太极推手的听劲儿，不应该是随便可以谈论的话题，没修炼到既着熟又懂劲的层面上
不要信口开河。信口交谈，容易把人导入太极修炼的误区，应该慎之又慎!


A Brief Introduction to Taiji Pushing Hands "Listen to Strength" Thoughts on Wuquan (136)
2017.9.22.
In many occasions of Tai Chi push hands, we often hear the topic of "listen to strength" in push hands. Some talk about listening strength by "topping and throwing resistance, sticking and sticking together"; some use "body sensation" to talk about listening strength; Dali and Xiaozhong" say "listening strength"; there are others who often play push hands, but don't know what listening strength is.

All kinds are too numerous to enumerate, and there are many words to say.


Wang Zongyue has a classic theory of "understanding strength gradually from familiarity, and understanding strength and gods from understanding". After years of practice and understanding of Taiji push hands, the author briefly talks about my understanding of "listening to strength" in Taiji push hands.
The premise of "listening strength" in Tai Chi pushing hands is "understanding strength", don't talk about listening strength if you don't understand strength.

The basis of understanding strength is familiarity, without five or eight years of boxing experience and practice according to old boxing theory, it is impossible to talk about familiarity and understanding strength.


What is cooked? When you know the principles of Tai Chi in boxing, you know the why of each move and style, and you know the eight methods, five steps and thirteen movements in your heart, it is called familiarity.

What is understanding? The so-called understanding of strength is also more than one word. It is more in line with the classic boxing theory that understanding the boxing theory of "movement and stillness, yin and yang, virtual reality, opening and closing" is called understanding strength.


The author's understanding is: in order to understand Jin, one must understand what Tai Chi Jin is. What is Tai Chi? Each sect and sect also hold their own principles and speak their own words. What we practice is Yang-style Wangmai, Wangmai's theory: "Shen, Yi, and Qi are the real inner strength of Tai Chi."

Therefore, if you practice Tai Chi, if you don’t know how to cultivate your mind and spirit, and if you don’t take Wang Mai’s "loose, loose, open, and empty" confidant skills into Taoism, it is difficult to say that you have understood Jin. Wang Mai’s understanding of Jin completely gets rid of the entanglement of power. ,

Tai Chi pushing hands has nothing to do with strength, but the knowledge of "integration of spirit and energy",
"intelligence and energy, and energy and strength".


The author believes that the practice of Tai Chi has not reached the above level of understanding strength, so don't say "listen to strength". Therefore, "holding up and throwing resistance" cannot be called listening strength, it means that you don't understand strength; "Twisting and stirring" is not to mention listening, it is a competition with each other.

Listening should be a topic for high-level and high-level Kung Fu practitioners, because they can listen well, and they can listen well without any signs of tearing or twisting. , High realm level, therefore, they listen to the spirit, can talk about the point and make you convinced;
Listening, it should be the topic of master training apprentices.

Which might help to explain why push hands in this context...does not use or include what some feel is missing from it


The master knows how to listen to strength, so that he can accurately judge whether the apprentice's Tai Chi strength is good or not, and at what level, so as to give just the right instructions and guidance, and cultivate and train apprentices in the process of listening to strength and adjusting strength;

Listening to strength should also be a topic of discussion between seniors and brothers. During the sparring, the brothers testify to each other whether there is Tai Chi energy, and realize whether it is the Tai Chi energy of the master;


Listening, it's not about leaving each other's boastful talk, nor is it endlessly competing for supremacy with each other, but a few words in a hand-in-hand meeting;

Listening strength is not a topic of a "teacher" who can only teach boxing but not pushing hands.
He insists on talking about listening strength or exerting strength, but he is just pretending, aiming at nothing, pretending to understand what he doesn't know. ...

Listening strength, "'listening' is a kind of 'strength', a kind of 'steadiness', and a kind of 'quietness'" (Zhu Chunxuan's words), is the prerequisite for Taiji push hands to defeat the enemy. Only by pushing the hands can you gain the opportunity to gain power, convenient and convenient, free and flexible, and follow your heart's desire: either use softness to overcome rigidity, or be the first to control, or attract force to fail, or use strength to fight..

.
Listening strength is the ladder and magic weapon for the progress of Tai Chi Push Hands Kung Fu.

Between master and apprentice, between brothers and boxing friends, they often study Tai Chi Push Hands with real listening strength, and they will benefit from teaching and learning, promote each other, and improve together. , will greatly shorten the time and mileage to enter the Tai Chi Advanced Hall.

Listening to Jin'er and Tai Chi Kung Fu accompany each other and go together all the way, and there are also differences between elementary and advanced. The primary level of Taiji kung fu is "skin listening". In the contact between the skin of both sides, the "sticking, sticking and following" kung fu hand is used to subdue the sick hand of "topping and losing resistance".

Those with advanced skills will accurately judge the opponent's energy path: "Do not touch the point", "Do not hit the person", use the end of the energy to hit the source of energy, do not move rashly, do not entangle, walk away with hands, and see immediate results...;


The high-level listening energy of Taiji high-level kung fu is "listening with the heart method". If both parties want to push hands, the high-level practitioners of "invisible and formless, responding to things naturally" can be quite Accurately judge the opponent's psychological dynamics and make the opponent stand unsteadily, uprooted and walk away amidst the unpredictable.

In short, the listening strength of Tai Chi pushing hands should not be a topic that can be discussed casually.
Don't talk about it until you are familiar with it and understand the strength.
Talking casually can easily lead people into the misunderstanding of Tai Chi practice, so we should be cautious!

[origami_itto]

- Taiji guys talk about push.

Taiji guys talk about all that and kicking and locking too, man. What are you on about?

Look at Adam Mizner, perfect example, ten years ago some dude pushes him back a bit and all you hear for weeks is "SEE HE'S NOT INVINCIBLE".

This is what I'm trying to say. You push me, I borrow your pushing force, and jump back. You didn't win. I didn't lose. What's the big deal about "pushing"?

Pushing isn't the point. In push hands being able to pop somebody back is just one kind of jin. The good stuff is just keeping them consistently off balance so you can do what you want with them. Move them where you want, put them on the ground, kick em, hit em. It sucks to be on the receiving end.

Like this. If it were a self defense situation, it would have been over at the 0:13 mark.

https://youtu.be/QjoecjvEgTk?t=11

[origami_itto]

The premise of "listening strength" in Tai Chi pushing hands is "understanding strength", don't talk about listening strength if you don't understand strength.

Ting jin vs ding jin? Dong jin? What is the word for that comprehending energy?

[johnwang]

In push hands being able to pop somebody back is just one kind of jin. The good stuff is just keeping them consistently off balance so you can do what you want with them. Move them where you want, put them on the ground, kick em, hit em. It sucks to be on the receiving end.

How can you

- put them on the ground,
- kick em,
- hit em,

if you have pushed your opponent 15 feet away?