historical accounts

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

historical accounts

Postby windwalker on Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:01 pm

During the Qing Dynasty, Yang Luchan had become famous, and was invited by the emperor to teach at the emperor's court.
Luchan was unwilling to teach his personal martial art to a foreign ruler that he felt was suppressing the country. In addition, Yang was a Han, and the emperor was a Manchu. Yang was not willing to give these invaders his personal art. So he made up another.



As for deceiving the prince of Qing Dynasty for all those years, that is just not possible for someone in his position. First: before coming to Beijing Yang Luchan spent his entire adult life as an indentured servant. He was freed only because his master died, and it was unseemly for an single adult male his age to be living alone with the widow of the master.



Can both be true ?
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10544
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: historical accounts

Postby Quigga on Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:41 pm

Sure why not. I can understand not wanting to share something you keep very close to heart (or essentially your hard earned livelihood acquiring tool / life secrets you gathered) to your and your people's oppressors. Who knows if he lost friends or family or neighbors to them.

Also, if you're the only guy who knows your personal art in and out, how will anybody ever find out you're deceiving them? You'd have to be really careful tho when transmitting the whole real thing to another person. They might snitch you out if there's bad blood. But that would require the Emperor to believe the snitch and making him admit he was fooled, which can be risky again for the betrayer.

I'm sure you can come up with something that rivals comparable arts around at the time, but that's lacking some key details. Or even steers people in a different direction entirely. Someone like Lucian must have had lots of direct experience and knowledge of training methods to fall back on.

Depending on whom he was teaching, marginal gains in health and martial abilities, with some woo woo added and embedding it in the nation's culture somehow would be enough. Then when asked why there isn't more noticeable progress via training, you can just say to practice more. Or that you don't have the right karma yet, Heaven didn't choose you, idk. That you don't believe in the method enough.
I mean don't get me wrong, there are many legit reasons why people don't progress in legit systems.

It has to be passable to other warrior's and/or educated people in other words. The Emperor himself certainly didn't have enough practice to discern whether he was being fooled or not.

If someone wants to fool me in an area I likely have no clue about and I choose to like them in some way, they probably would have an easy time. If Luchan wasn't favored by the Emperor in some ways, he likely wouldn't have been invited in the first place. Unless it was part of some kind of trap or scheme to expose him or other teachers at the court. But in any case, he had something he seemed to want desperately.

Also, who knows who else taught at the court. Maybe he wanted to test other teachers present. But ofc, a big part of being Emperor is increasing/at the very least maintaining your power in regards to just being prepared.

Besides that, you would have to check the validity of the sources themselves which can be hard to do. Even if you have 10 different accounts of what happened somewhere, doesn't mean they're true. Maybe someone wanted to slander Luchan in some way?

But I certainly bet he was an interesting and capable guy either way. Would be cool to witness someone who literally did nothing else but focus on practice their entire life and was completely emerged in the culture.
Quigga

 

Re: historical accounts

Postby yeniseri on Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:10 pm

I am sure that Han people were happy when the foreign Qing (Manchu) dynasty ended but it was often more than that! China was in a bad state of affairs, the East India Company monopolized the Opium Trade to
the extent that drug addiction was a major problem and patriotic fervor was blooming enough to get rid of "old' 'foreign' and other ideas that was destroying the nation.

Yang Luchan taught Manchu people and others associated with the QIng dynasty.
Quanyu Wu was associated with the Qing along with members of Flag Battalion(s) and his family was well connected so that was an assist for Yang LUchan as he got to meet others of the same or similar clans associated
with the ruling dynasty. There was another branch of Yang style who also taught by Yang's sons and they interestingl;y were Manchu (records do not mention ethnicity but enough cases do ;D ) as many were Hui (Muslim) nationality as was Ma Yuehliang. IN the past anyone with the surname Ma usually was Hui affiliated. Today is is less apparent when compared to the past because communism has attempted to deface religion as they are doing in Xinkiang Province with the Uyghur people. When you check out Baidu to search stuff, many times they give the ethnic affiliation of the martial practitioner

Not all Wu's are the same but interestingly Wu Tunan was Manchu, I believe. A pattern does develop that Yang didi teach Manchu and other non Han people taijiquan but everyobe developed it according to their own skill and exposure.
NOTE: The other Wu style (different tone) Wu Yuxiang/Hao Weizhen, the Sun style parent
When fascism comes to US America, It will be wrapped in the US flag and waving a cross. An astute patriot
yeniseri
Wuji
 
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2009 1:49 pm
Location: USA

Re: historical accounts

Postby origami_itto on Tue Feb 07, 2023 3:49 am

History is a record of biases.

And I don't think it's racist or sinophobic to note that the Chinese tend to play a little fast and loose with their "historical accounts" so who can say what the truth really is.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: historical accounts

Postby Bao on Tue Feb 07, 2023 2:20 pm

" before coming to Beijing Yang Luchan spent his entire adult life as an indentured servant. He was freed only because his master died, and it was unseemly for an single adult male his age to be living alone with the widow of the master."


Just BS. Just reading a bit about the little traces of real history, we know the servant myth doesn't make sense. Yang Luchan had children, how could he have children if he lived as a servant? And he certainly did not spend all his time in the village.

So the servant stuff is a just myth, something from a fiction novel. The Chen guys worked as hired body guards and security personnel. As Yang Luchan was a big fellow and already a skilled martial artist, they hired him to follow them on missions. Yang learned the Chen family art while accompanying them on missions.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: historical accounts

Postby Appledog on Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:59 am

windwalker wrote:
During the Qing Dynasty, Yang Luchan had become famous, and was invited by the emperor to teach at the emperor's court.
Luchan was unwilling to teach his personal martial art to a foreign ruler that he felt was suppressing the country. In addition, Yang was a Han, and the emperor was a Manchu. Yang was not willing to give these invaders his personal art. So he made up another.



As for deceiving the prince of Qing Dynasty for all those years, that is just not possible for someone in his position. First: before coming to Beijing Yang Luchan spent his entire adult life as an indentured servant. He was freed only because his master died, and it was unseemly for an single adult male his age to be living alone with the widow of the master.



Can both be true ?



I think so. Apparently Yang Lu-Chan had classmates, remember? Maybe ask one of them.

My personal speculation is that Yang Lu-Chan kept his promise not to reveal the secrets of the Chen family. Everything about the Yang method vs the Chen method seems to me as if the entire middle section of how to get from A to B was simply removed. If you know it's there, then you are in the game, and you can see it. If you don't know it's there it looks and feels, acts, and is trained, as if it wasn't there. There's just so much left unsaid in the Yang method and which is done through "do this and feel what happens". For example recently someone in another thread said something like "You can't try... you cna only (give up)". Of course this is both correct and incorrect. if you don't know what you need to try to do then it feels like you need to give up. The truth is there's a method, but it is just not taught outside of the door.

The problem with complaining about this (as a Yang stylist) is that frankly there is so much crossover knowledge and input from other styles today that did not exist 100 years ago that it's not really necessary to keep these kinds of secrets anymore. Purists may disagree but it's like watching that "Primitive Technology" youtube channel. Yeah, we get it, now please buy a lighter, it's okay to move foreward.

Yang Style Tai Chi is at least 60 years out of date right now :p
Last edited by Appledog on Wed Feb 08, 2023 8:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: historical accounts

Postby origami_itto on Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:10 am

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:
During the Qing Dynasty, Yang Luchan had become famous, and was invited by the emperor to teach at the emperor's court.
Luchan was unwilling to teach his personal martial art to a foreign ruler that he felt was suppressing the country. In addition, Yang was a Han, and the emperor was a Manchu. Yang was not willing to give these invaders his personal art. So he made up another.



As for deceiving the prince of Qing Dynasty for all those years, that is just not possible for someone in his position. First: before coming to Beijing Yang Luchan spent his entire adult life as an indentured servant. He was freed only because his master died, and it was unseemly for an single adult male his age to be living alone with the widow of the master.



Can both be true ?



I think so. Apparently Yang Lu-Chan had classmates, remember? Maybe ask one of them.

My personal speculation is that Yang Lu-Chan kept his promise not to reveal the secrets of the Chen family. Everything about the Yang method vs the Chen method seems to me as if the entire middle section of how to get from A to B was simply removed. If you know it's there, then you are in the game, and you can see it. If you don't know it's there it looks and feels, acts, and is trained, as if it wasn't there. There's just so much left unsaid in the Yang method and which is done through "do this and feel what happens". For example recently someone in another thread said something like "You can't try... you cna only (give up)". Of course this is both correct and incorrect. if you don't know what you need to try to do then it feels like you need to give up. The truth is there's a method, but it is just not taught outside of the door.

The problem with complaining about this (as a Yang stylist) is that frankly there is so much crossover knowledge and input from other styles today that did not exist 100 years ago that it's not really necessary to keep these kinds of secrets anymore. Purists may disagree but it's like watching that "Primitive Technology" youtube channel. Yeah, we get it, now please buy a lighter, it's okay to move foreward.

Yang Style Tai Chi is at least 60 years out of date right now :p


Okay, so two things.

1) point to yang taijiquan so I know what we're discussing
2) what do you think is the missing piece to the method?
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: historical accounts

Postby windwalker on Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:19 am

Appledog wrote:

I think so. Apparently Yang Lu-Chan had classmates, remember? Maybe ask one of them.

My personal speculation is that Yang Lu-Chan kept his promise not to reveal the secrets of the Chen family. Everything about the Yang method vs the Chen method seems to me as if the entire middle section of how to get from A to B was simply removed. If you know it's there, then you are in the game, and you can see it. If you don't know it's there it looks and feels, acts, and is trained, as if it wasn't there. There's just so much left unsaid in the Yang method and which is done through "do this and feel what happens". For example recently someone in another thread said something like "You can't try... you cna only (give up)". Of course this is both correct and incorrect. if you don't know what you need to try to do then it feels like you need to give up. The truth is there's a method, but it is just not taught outside of the door.

The problem with complaining about this (as a Yang stylist) is that frankly there is so much crossover knowledge and input from other styles today that did not exist 100 years ago that it's not really necessary to keep these kinds of secrets anymore. Purists may disagree but it's like watching that "Primitive Technology" youtube channel. Yeah, we get it, now please buy a lighter, it's okay to move foreward.

Yang Style Tai Chi is at least 60 years out of date right now :p



:) in the game or not ?

Much of CMA could be said to be "not in the game :) , out of date" historical artifacts, maintaining a cultural significance from when they were developed for those within
the culture, an interesting practice for those outside of it.

The usefulness outside of the history so far yet to be established in professional fighting sport venues of today,
some use as a gauge of relevance, efficacy.

One could argue, "yang's" method produced some skilled practitioners....
Does what is called "yangjia michuan" have the same history outside of Zhang Qinlin..


I practiced by myself in the park. One day two men5 came and watched. Afterward, they said, "We have seen a lot of taiji, but we haven't seen anything like what you are doing. What is this?" they asked.

I didn't dare say that this was called theYangjia Michuan (hidden or secret) form. I said it was the Yang style.

They said, "It doesn't look like the Yang style.
"

"Well," I said, "It is the old Yang style." ;D


Do agree both accounts are probably true trying to explain or support
viewpoints arising from differences in practices...

The "Yang" family among other martial families are very careful regarding official representatives of their practices.
One might ask if what they practice is really "Yang's" style or not if they'er not affiliated with any of the family organizations.

Does it matter ?
Outside of the skill sets, attributed to the old masters...it may not...
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:54 am, edited 4 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10544
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: historical accounts

Postby Appledog on Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:07 am

origami_itto wrote:1) point to yang taijiquan so I know what we're discussing
2) what do you think is the missing piece to the method?


This is a difficult question to answer. I rewrote my answer a couple of times because it didn't sound good. This is the best way I think I can answer:

"After Zhang Qinlin arrived in Shanghai he said to Zheng, "You already know taijiquan, so we are not going to work on that. Because you are so interested in push hands, we will concentrate on that." For about three months, Zhang Laoshi lived and worked with Zheng Manqing. Some people say that Zhang Laoshi stayed with Zheng Manqing for three years, but it is not true - it was about three months. So, of course, Zheng Manqing did not learn Yangjia Michuan Taijiquan."

Nowadays it is said you need hands on experience with the teacher to reach a high level but that is just how some people were taught. It is possible then that many high level masters who were very good at tai chi were simply not educated in the art of teaching tai chi, but only in the art of actually using it.

One must have both skill and lineage -- the ability to authoritatively say "I am qualified to pass everything down to you", or at some point you will feel it. At that point you will either give up your training or you will find another teacher.
Last edited by Appledog on Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
Appledog
Wuji
 
Posts: 941
Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:39 pm

Re: historical accounts

Postby Doc Stier on Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:17 am

The bottom line is simple, yet challenging for most. Regardless of lineage, the practices included, or the historical reputation of its foremost practitioners, the foundation of real knowledge and skills is always a serious daily training regimen, and hands on experience with teachers who possess greater skills than your own.

Having observed the personal achievements of notable representatives in various schools over many decades time to date, or the obvious want of same, some methods may indeed be better than others are. This is true in every field of human endeavor.

Nonetheless, even a superior training method taught by an expertly skilled teacher will fail to produce superior results if it isn't practiced regularly and diligently. Most practitioners of every style or lineage are apparently unable or unwilling to sustain a serious training regimen, thus making all debate about which style or lineage is best essentially a moot point, imo, since their personal achievements do not reflect the full potential of whatever they have been taught.

Ultimately, the proof of your opinions is always demonstrated in the obvious benefits and skills resulting from your own practice. ymmv -shrug-
Last edited by Doc Stier on Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5693
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: historical accounts

Postby Pennykid on Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:25 am

''As Yang Luchan was a big fellow"
That's the first time I've ever heard him described that way. I thought he was supposed to be a small slender man.
Last edited by Pennykid on Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pennykid
Anjing
 
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 6:00 pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: historical accounts

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Feb 12, 2023 2:28 am

I thought the same thing when I read that
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5660
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: historical accounts

Postby Bao on Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:17 am

If you see the picture of Yang Luchan as old, you might get that impression. According to what I've read, the Yang guys were all pretty big compared to the average Chinese of that time. Many of the "internal" martial artists worked as body guards and security personnel. The Chen family hired Yang Luchan because he was a strong and a martial artist. If he had looked weak and slender, they would never had hired him. This is just a fact.

You don't need to be weak to do IMA. And if you are strong, it doesn't mean that you can't understand the soft and subtle skills. Just look at pictures of Gu Ruzhang. He was one of many body guards Sun Lutang trained and rent out to various rich people. He was a very strong guy who built up his muscles. Still, in his well known Tai Chi book, he claims that you need to totally forget about muscles and relax completely if you want to understand Tai Chi.

One thing doesn't necessarily exclude another. Strength doesn't necessarily exclude softness.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Feb 12, 2023 3:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9007
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: historical accounts

Postby Doc Stier on Sun Feb 12, 2023 7:45 am

The only "big fellow" among the first three generations of the Yang family was Yang Cheng-Fu. Any contrary claim is what my teacher refers to as 'Wild History'. ::)
"First in the Mind and then in the Body."
User avatar
Doc Stier
Great Old One
 
Posts: 5693
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:04 pm
Location: Woodcreek, TX

Re: historical accounts

Postby origami_itto on Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:25 pm

Doc Stier wrote:The only "big fellow" among the first three generations of the Yang family was Yang Cheng-Fu. Any contrary claim is what my teacher refers to as 'Wild History'. ::)

It's interesting how the story gets built, though, isn't it?

"They said he was a servant, but that doesn't make any sense, he was obviously a bodygaurd"

"They hired him as a bodyguard, and they would never hire somebody too short and skinny"

There IS however a well accepted account retold by several different people that directly mentions his appearance.

From: https://gwongzaukungfu.com/en/yang-luchan-life/

In the western part of Běijīng lived a rich man named Zhāng in a large mansion. This Zhāng was passionate about martial arts; he had more than thirty guards serving in his house, and he himself was a fervent practitioner.

When he heard about Yáng Lùchán, he sent a friend of his to invite him to his house. When Yáng arrived, Zhāng saw that he was a small and thin man, with an innocent face and wearing vulgar clothes. Then Zhāng received him impolitely, offering a very poor meal as a welcome. Yáng, realizing the situation, poured wine in his cup to drink himself, ignoring the rest. This angered his host, who said he had heard of Yáng Lùchán, but doubted that Tàijíquán could be used to fight for real.

Yáng replied that there were three types of people against whom his style was useless. When Zhāng asked what these types of people were, Yáng replied: "The bronze people, the iron people, and the wooden people. It's hard to fight with them, but with the rest it's easy."

Zhāng proposed the best of his men, named Liú 劉, who could lift more than 200 kilos, to face Yáng.

Liú attacked fiercely, falling on Yáng like a mountain, his fists whistling like the wind. Yáng used his right hand to accompany Liú's attack and make him land on emptyness, and slapped him with his left hand, sending him thirty feet away.

After this demonstration, Zhāng apologized and asked his cooks to prepare a proper banquet, paying homage to Lùchán as a teacher.

(Adapted from Tàijíquán Shǐyòngfǎ 太極拳使用法, Methods of Application of Tàijíquán).
Last edited by origami_itto on Sun Feb 12, 2023 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5031
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests