Coordinate your breath with your movement

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:44 pm

If A takes 5 minutes to finish his 108 moves Taiji form by following the guideline that "1 move equal to 1 breath" (either inhale, or exhale). B will take 20 minutes to finish the same 108 moves Taiji form. That mean B takes about 4 breaths on each move, or B can breath 4 times slower than A can (this is quite unlikely).

This imply that B does a single punch (or a single kick) by doing inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale (or exhale, inhale, exhale, inhale)? Is that correct way to train any MA system?

Will you swing your baseball bat in slow motion by doing inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale, or just 1 swing with 1 breath?

What's your opinion on this?

Image

4 minutes and 40 seconds:



24 minutes and 38 seconds:

Last edited by johnwang on Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby origami_itto on Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:45 pm

I wouldn't advise matching your breath to the movements. It's better to just ignore the breath and let it do what it needs to do. Focusing on the breath is for other work.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5036
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby johnwang on Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:23 pm

origami_itto wrote:I wouldn't advise matching your breath to the movements. It's better to just ignore the breath and let it do what it needs to do. Focusing on the breath is for other work.

What kind of "other work" are you talking about? If you don't coordinate breathing with your movement during solo form training, when do you train that?
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby charlie_cambridge on Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:03 pm

We consider the breath the gateway to the internal because it is the one autonomic body process that the conscious mind has control over as well (through the diaphragm muscles etc) unlike other things like the heartbeat which would require a much deeper mind to control (most people can't directly consciously control their heartbeat without specific training)

So it's actually quite important. ZMQ and HXX publicly told outer school to just breathe naturally, but taught the specific breathing to the inner school. PK does not see need to keep it as some big secret because he does not consider it even that deep a practice, but the very first thing we do before even listening in the body is to use the breath to sink the mind deeper.

We train the form at different speeds. Initially the breath to sink the mind deeper (and coordinating with the breath for a number of other reasons). Then as John Wang noted it is impossible to coordinate the same way as you move faster, so we don't focus on it so much there (we are training other things when we move faster, but actually the breathe should still coordinate with certain muscle changes where possible) but initially we spend some time moving more slowly and coordinating the breath very deliberately to sink the mind deeper with the movement.

At a very beginning level, consciously lengthening the inhale will expand the lung capacity and together with slow movements will improve oxygenation which is one of most important things for health. (PK gave a mini lecture on this and explained he didn't actually care that much about the health part but hoped that understanding that will motivate us to do it more and improve the depth of our training)

Also for me I notice when observing the muscle phase changes say in the 5th loosening that coordinating the breathing serves as a good reality check at the beginning--it's very easy not to feel contractions esp habits we've been doing all our life, but sudden contractual will force an exhale to stop and inhale to start, and will noticeably making breathing in the right timing impossible, so paying attention will reveal a number of habitual contractions that would be much harder to notice otherwise.

I'm not going to try to describe in a post since there are quite some details and it touches on bringing the meditation into the training, which can be harmful if mis/half understood. If interested I'd recommend looking up one of PK students in person (Tim in Chicago or me in Boston in US, lots in EU) or Guillem's online thing at taijistream.com where he teaches quite systematically.
Last edited by charlie_cambridge on Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
charlie_cambridge
Mingjing
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:54 pm

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby origami_itto on Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:49 pm

johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I wouldn't advise matching your breath to the movements. It's better to just ignore the breath and let it do what it needs to do. Focusing on the breath is for other work.

What kind of "other work" are you talking about? If you don't coordinate breathing with your movement during solo form training, when do you train that?

In qigong/neigong exercises.

During the form my breathing is passive, the motion of my body moves my breath for me. In striking, I could throw one, two, three... ten punches on a single inhale and exhale. It's a circulation.

This is something I noticed when teaching, I'm breathing in and out with my abdomen expanding and contracting while talking and my voice is not affected in the slightest. Not even bringing up circulation without bringing in new air.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5036
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby everything on Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:01 pm

if you randomly google breathing in baseball, there is a lot of instruction out there at the pro team level. probably a broad and deep topic on its own.

http://baseballstrength.org/proper-brea ... -baseball/
https://www.knbr.com/2022/05/21/inside- ... breathing/

including qigong (not called that, apparently) "energy flow" via "grounding" (lol at the constant, stupid reinvention of terms)

It was May 1, just days after being diagnosed with a grade 1 right abductor strain, and Joc Pederson kicked off his flip flops by the Giants dugout steps.

Barefoot, the outfielder walked from the left field foul pole to the right field pole and back. Once he completed that task, he sat in the outfield grass with his heels clicking in a butterfly stretch pose.

The team had listed Pederson as day-to-day. He’d receive treatment and see how his groin reacted to working out. But this Oracle Park morning appeared more stroll than exercise.

But this activity is a practice called “grounding.” Just like training any muscle in the weight room, Pederson was training his mind. The concept of the meditation technique, essentially, is to feel connected to the earth below you. Shoes are a barrier to that. Removing them allows a positive and negative ion equilibrium, Martin said. It allows energy to flow.
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby greytowhite on Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:46 pm

johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I wouldn't advise matching your breath to the movements. It's better to just ignore the breath and let it do what it needs to do. Focusing on the breath is for other work.

What kind of "other work" are you talking about? If you don't coordinate breathing with your movement during solo form training, when do you train that?


I like to do breath coordination in Neigong and in small forms like Xingyi Wuxing or Bagua Ding Shi. Sometimes I'll do it with fajin expressions in the Bagua Old 8 Palms. When I do Xingyi with more intent breath stuff seems to spontaneously manifest. For something very long like Taijiquan forms I'm primarily trying to feel where things are too tense and where things are moving inside my body, make sure the reeling silk is there and try to feel what else is going on with my energy in the form. The Beijing 24 Taiji is a great fajin engine once you know it enough to do it on the right side. Sometimes the ZMQ 37 has something going on in it but rarely much moves with that form for me. The Guang Ping Yang form I'm learning is fairly obvious when things are moving but I can't yet say I know it enough to comment on breath coordination.
User avatar
greytowhite
Wuji
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby greytowhite on Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:46 pm

johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I wouldn't advise matching your breath to the movements. It's better to just ignore the breath and let it do what it needs to do. Focusing on the breath is for other work.

What kind of "other work" are you talking about? If you don't coordinate breathing with your movement during solo form training, when do you train that?


I like to do breath coordination in Neigong and in small forms like Xingyi Wuxing or Bagua Ding Shi. Sometimes I'll do it with fajin expressions in the Bagua Old 8 Palms. When I do Xingyi with more intent breath stuff seems to spontaneously manifest. For something very long like Taijiquan forms I'm primarily trying to feel where things are too tense and where things are moving inside my body, make sure the reeling silk is there and try to feel what else is going on with my energy in the form. The Beijing 24 Taiji is a great fajin engine once you know it enough to do it on the right side. Sometimes the ZMQ 37 has something going on in it but rarely much moves with that form for me. The Guang Ping Yang form I'm learning is fairly obvious when things are moving but I can't yet say I know it enough to comment on breath coordination.
User avatar
greytowhite
Wuji
 
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby Giles on Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:26 am

origami_itto wrote:
johnwang wrote:
origami_itto wrote:I wouldn't advise matching your breath to the movements. It's better to just ignore the breath and let it do what it needs to do. Focusing on the breath is for other work.

What kind of "other work" are you talking about? If you don't coordinate breathing with your movement during solo form training, when do you train that?


In qigong/neigong exercises.

During the form my breathing is passive, the motion of my body moves my breath for me. In striking, I could throw one, two, three... ten punches on a single inhale and exhale. It's a circulation.


This.

Cultivation of the deeper breath body connections is for separate exercises which focus more specifically on these areas. The changes/connections that result from this work then flow into other areas such a tai chi form and all the partner/opponent stuff pretty much by themselves. You can, and I believe should, practice your tai chi form at many different speeds. If a particular move, technique, step or whatever becomes too coupled to a specific way and speed of breathing, then you'll end up handicapping yourself.

I know for sure that Cheng Man Ching (ZMQ) taught - quite clearly structured - reverse breathing exercises for protection and power to some of his Malaysian students. I don't see this as contradicting the basic idea of 'just breathing naturally' when practicing things like form and tui shou. (Of course, that doesn't mean that everyone automatically has good 'natural' breathing at the outset. This is often a process, too.)
In my opinion, doing one's standard basic form with a specific breathing pattern linked to the moves, or at least practicing this way most of the time, is a recipe for rigidity and inflexibility in both mind and body.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby Trip on Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:21 am

Giles wrote:In my opinion, doing one's standard basic form with a specific breathing pattern linked to the moves, or at least practicing this way most of the time, is a recipe for rigidity and inflexibility in both mind and body.


In the beginning,
Matching or coordinating your breathing to your external movements is prerequisite for awhile at first,
It helps with rhythm & in the development of open & close, Store & Release.

It can sorta act like finger pointing to that subtler movement of the body breath.
Where the movement is breathing: Opening & Closing

So, it'd be okay as long as you remember focusing on the breath is just the finger
pointing the way to subtler, harder to discern mind body breath
that includes the breathing, but is not led by the breathing.
That type of breathing feels almost same but not
They're braided so they can be hard to differentiate from one another

And, then once your mind and body breathes you take your focus off the finger.

Anyway, Just quick thoughts written on the fly.
There's Taiji terms for all of this
I just can't remember them at the moment.

The attention of your Whole being should be on the spirit and not on the chi. If it is on the chi, there will be blocks. Those whose attention is on the chi have no power; those whose attention is not on the chi achieve essential hardness.
Last edited by Trip on Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:34 am, edited 5 times in total.
Trip
Wuji
 
Posts: 771
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:40 pm

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby Mrwawa on Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:27 am

Trip wrote:
In the beginning,
Matching or coordinating your breathing to your external movements is prerequisite for awhile at first,
It helps with rhythm & in the development of open & close, Store & Release.

It can sorta act like finger pointing to that subtler movement of the body breath.
Where the movement is breathing: Opening & Closing

So, it'd be okay as long as you remember focusing on the breath is just the finger
pointing the way to subtler, harder to discern mind body breath
that includes the breathing, but is not led by the breathing.
That type of breathing feels almost same but not
They're braided so they can be hard to differentiate from one another

And, then once your mind and body breathes you take your focus off the finger.


I think this is exactly right. I have only recently moved to the beginnings of this phase of my taijiquan journey, but as always it makes me feel like I am starting over. But focus on the breath can only get you so far. Thanks for the explanation.
Mrwawa
Santi
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:03 am

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby johnwang on Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:24 am

Trip wrote:Matching or coordinating your breathing to your external movements ...

It should be the other way around - Matching or coordinating your external movements to your breathing. If you just run 5 miles, when you do your Taiji form, your Taiji form should be fast. In other words, you should not slow down your breathing for your form. You should speed up your form for your breathing if needed.
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:08 pm

As mentioned above we were taught 4 separate breathing patterns in the Malaysian line
I have practiced all 4 but think one is more than enough
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
Wuji
 
Posts: 5666
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:52 pm

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:22 pm

When you play sports as tennis, badminton or when you go bicycling, or when you lift or push something heavy, do you try to coordinate your breath?

Of course not.

In Tai Chi Chuan, you need to learn how to relax, real song. If you know how to relax, the breath will automatically sink. If you keep relaxed and balanced while moving, the breath will automatically coordinate itself properly according to your movements.

Coordinating the breath is will always act counterproductive. It will make people tense up their breath which make them "float". Relaxing and understanding how to the balance of the movement are what beginners need. If they have problem with breath or don't understand how to breathe, teach them to relax to the point where breathing takes over and controls itself.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: Coordinate your breath with your movement

Postby Giles on Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:32 pm

Trip wrote:
Giles wrote:In my opinion, doing one's standard basic form with a specific breathing pattern linked to the moves, or at least practicing this way most of the time, is a recipe for rigidity and inflexibility in both mind and body.


In the beginning,
Matching or coordinating your breathing to your external movements is prerequisite for awhile at first,
It helps with rhythm & in the development of open & close, Store & Release.

It can sorta act like finger pointing to that subtler movement of the body breath.
Where the movement is breathing: Opening & Closing

So, it'd be okay as long as you remember focusing on the breath is just the finger
pointing the way to subtler, harder to discern mind body breath
that includes the breathing, but is not led by the breathing.
That type of breathing feels almost same but not
They're braided so they can be hard to differentiate from one another

And, then once your mind and body breathes you take your focus off the finger.


I hear what you're saying, and in principle I agree. But do you always do your basic tai chi chuan form at the same speed? (A genuine question, not a rhetorical one). In other words, you don't vary from quite flowing to slow to super slow (but of course not stagnant)? If you do indeed always do your form at the same speed and have found a relaxed breathing pattern that works for you, then okay. Personally, I would start to feel my form as a corset if I didn't have the freedom to vary the speeds from day to day or minute to minute, while my breathing remains as slow, deep and relaxed as possible in that moment. That's why - like I said - I use separate exercises where specific movements are linked to specific patterns of inhalation and exhalation to work towards the desired effects.
Do not make the mistake of giving up the near in order to seek the far.
Giles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1352
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:19 am
Location: Berlin, Germany

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: twocircles13 and 24 guests