Starting Push Hands Training

[twocircles13]

Consciousness is Key, Not Mechanical, Not Thinking

Interesting approach to push hands one that echoes many of my own thoughts.

"you listen to yourself".

Nice way of putting it...Always mention to those I work with

" you can only feel your own resistance"

Yes, it is an interesting video and lecture.

Some of us might feel some dissonance between what his is doing and what he is saying. What he is doing is very mechanical, but he is conveying a important point. However, I find his word choice a little confusing, and jumping back and forth from Chinese to English just further muddies the waters.

Let’s step away from Taijiquan to illustrate what he is saying starting with baseball pitching, obviously a very mechanical skill. If you want to ruin a pitcher’s career, start getting them to think about their mechanics. Pitching coaches use specific verbal cues, drills, and physical manipulations to correct problems of pitchers. They do not want pitchers to start any kind of mechanical analysis. The coach’s job is to analyze. They want the pitchers to sense and feel the pitch only. Beyond baseball pitchers, this is true of many athletic skills all throwing, golf, tennis, etc. So, yes, you cannot think about mechanics.

I object to Mizner's use of the word, “Consciousness”, his substitute for “yi". That word tends to be associated with cognition and the function of the verbal part of our brain. Mizner specifically says its not about what we are consciously thinking. The verbal processing of the brain is notorious for throwing off the motor control of the brain. So, we also do not want to be thinking in words.

The most accurate way to describe what is going on in our brains is to use terms that are associated with the sensory and motor control centers of our brains. Unfortunately, these are sometimes as foreign to us as yi, qi and jin. The general terms are “proprioception”, “kinesthesia” and "kinesthetic imagination”. The jargon of this field is still evolving, so it also is still incomplete. For example, if I asked you to imagining yourself doing a movement, and you visualized yourself doing the movement. That would have less effect on your later performance of that movement than if you interpreted “imagining" as feeling yourself doing the movement.

I think this is what Mizner is getting at. You can’t think about mechanics. You can’t execute verbal commands in your head. You have to do something else, which he sort of leaves veiled in mystery, but we do it all the time.

If you can walk and chew bubblegum, if you can drive and carry on a conversation with someone in the car, if you can see a pencil rolling off a desk and reach down and catch it before it falls, you can do what he is talking about. This is allowing the motor control and sensory systems of the body to do their jobs unimpeded by the conscious, verbal, and analytical centers of the brain.

The way I first conceptualized this with taijiquan a couple of decades ago was that I needed to internalize the movements, principles. and teachings of taijiquan and ingrain them in my body. I think that is still a valid way to think about it.

Edit: Thinking about terminology, I think, "kinesthetic awareness" or "proprioceptive perception” might be accurate terms, and there is more to it.

[windwalker]

Yes, it is an interesting video and lecture.

Some of us might feel some dissonance between what his is doing and what he is saying. What he is doing is very mechanical, but he is conveying a important point. However, I find his word choice a little confusing, and jumping back and forth from Chinese to English just further muddies the waters.

Don't have a problem with his choice of words, it's a demo using a structured practice method.

Let’s step away from Taijiquan to illustrate what he is saying starting with baseball pitching, obviously a very mechanical skill. If you want to ruin a pitcher’s career, start getting them to think about their mechanics. Pitching coaches use specific verbal cues, drills, and physical manipulations to correct problems of pitchers. They do not want pitchers to start any kind of mechanical analysis. The coach’s job is to analyze. They want the pitchers to sense and feel the pitch only. Beyond baseball pitchers, this is true of many athletic skills all throwing, golf, tennis, etc. So, yes, you cannot think about mechanics.

I object to Mizner's use of the word, “Consciousness”, his substitute for “yi". That word tends to be associated with cognition and the function of the verbal part of our brain. Mizner specifically says its not about what we are consciously thinking. The verbal processing of the brain is notorious for throwing off the motor control of the brain. So, we also do not want to be thinking in words.

Objection noted, but with no video clips of your own work illustrating what is written it's just more words..

The most accurate way to describe what is going on in our brains is to use terms that are associated with the sensory and motor control centers of our brains. Unfortunately, these are sometimes as foreign to us as yi, qi and jin. The general terms are “proprioception”, “kinesthesia” and "kinesthetic imagination”. The jargon of this field is still evolving, so it also is still incomplete. For example, if I asked you to imagining yourself doing a movement, and you visualized yourself doing the movement. That would have less effect on your later performance of that movement than if you interpreted “imagining" as feeling yourself doing the movement.

Why not understand the words used to describe it, why the push to re-label with other words, that with out training to understand them also have no meaning.

I think this is what Mizner is getting at. You can’t think about mechanics. You can’t execute verbal commands in your head. You have to do something else, which he sort of leaves veiled in mystery, but we do it all the time.

If you can walk and chew bubblegum, if you can drive and carry on a conversation with someone in the car, if you can see a pencil rolling off a desk and reach down and catch it before it falls, you can do what he is talking about. This is allowing the motor control and sensory systems of the body to do their jobs unimpeded by the conscious, verbal, and analytical centers of the brain.

The way I first conceptualized this with taijiquan a couple of decades ago was that I needed to internalize the movements, principles. and teachings of taijiquan and ingrain them in my body. I think that is still a valid way to think about it.

Edit: Thinking about terminology, I think, "kinesthetic awareness" or "proprioceptive perception” might be accurate terms, and there is more to it.

In my own practice I refer to "focused awareness" when talking about 意 (Yi) for non native speakers helping them to understand the idea while allowing them to feel it expressed in practice.

For native speakers also a little hard due to the western influence on their thinking.

Belong to a large wechat group based in China 300+ focused on taiji, with many noted in the field and others having studied from some of the famous masters often quoted here.
Interesting enough many there hold Adam Minzer as one of the few western exponents of taiji who demonstrates high level skill sets that taiji is noted for.

[windwalker]

A while back Adam did a demo where he was seated the student grasping his leg, he was able to cause a reaction in the student...
Thought it was quite interesting...and also a good demo...

The verbiage used seemed ok although not how I would explain it, he seemed un clear in talking about emptying the point, using Qi and so forth.

Feel if one can do what was demonstrated what is said wouldn't matter so. much..
Like his work, interesting demos..

[Quigga]

Cool demo. I can't do something like that, as far as I know. How do you do it? Can you do it without using your hand? You also produced a comparitively mild effect. Although it's very interesting.

[windwalker]

Cool demo. I can't do something like that, as far as I know. How do you do it? Can you do it without using your hand?
You also produced a comparitively mild effect.
Although it's very interesting.

.

Well haha, I can do other things, Adam does not show, I'm sure he probably can do them.
The point was,,,found the demo interesting and wondered how it could or would be done....

He explains and demos it here

Watch how he points his finger in the demo , in my clip its the same only using the lao gong point in the palm of the hand.
both are connected to different points commonly used....

Both can be used or not...One method used in focusing directing the 氣 (Qi)

[twocircles13]

In my own practice I refer to "focused awareness" when talking about 意 (Yi) for non native speakers helping them to understand the idea while allowing them to feel it expressed in practice.

For native speakers also a little hard due to the western influence on their thinking.

Belong to a large wechat group based in China 300+ focused on taiji, with many noted in the field and others having studied from some of the famous masters often quoted here. Interesting enough many there hold Adam Minzer as one of the few western exponents of taiji who demonstrates high level skill sets that taiji is noted for.

I think "focused awareness' is a fine description of the mental state one needs to be in while pushing hands and taijiquan in general.

I have quit using terms like “western influence” because it seems to me the focus much of Asia is not westernization but modernization. it might even be insulting to assume Asia wants to be like the West when all they really want is to make modern technology their own. Of course, there is cultural cross pollination, but that was not the focus only a by-product.

Great, that group sounds interesting. However, including this comment leads me to believe that you have misconstrued my own comment and maybe even the video itself. I have not criticized Mr. Mizner’s technique or skill. I think he uses a set of legitimate taiji push hands techniques and has refined them until they are nearly undetectable. I had to go frame-by-frame and watch his partner's feet to understand what he was doing.

My two criticisms were that the video was out of context, four minutes and seventeen seconds out of what was likely hours of instruction, and as stated, I think his explanation and terminology, out of context, muddies understanding rather than clarifies.

The problem caused by these two items is that it seems he is teaching how to do his techniques when it is more likely he is only discussing the mental state one needs while doing push hands and taijiquan. It’s impossible to tell how much other explanation and defining went on throughout the day(s).

Another way to say what I hear him saying is “Act, don’t think.” Of course this also assumes that you have done the foundation work of building the correct neuromuscular pathways to act in a taijiquan manner.

EDIT: I didn’t see that this was a question.

Why not understand the words used to describe it, why the push to re-label with other words, that with out training to understand them also have no meaning.

???

Indeed. Well, two reasons, the modern Chinese definitions of yi, qi, jin and similar words are not the taijiquan definitions of the words. So, one needs a taijiquan teacher that knows to let you feel what they mean.

Second, Mizner’s video is a good illustration. He uses a word, “consciousness", loaded with both connotations and denotations, so his audience is left with as many misconceptions as if he had you yi or Shen or whatever he was translating.. What I did was listed some of the scientific motor control and sensory terms the would be a more exact English alternative.

As I said the problem was switching back and forth from Chinese to English. Choose one and stick with it.

[wayne hansen]

This is like having a discussion on Narnia
Too late to unscramble the eggs
This is the last gasp of tai chi

[Quigga]

Windwalker,

I don't know exactly. I once received an instruction years ago to go / feel inside from the point of contact towards their root into the ground. Tho I don't know what I'm supposed to send. I haven't done much practice projecting energy outside the body.

Didn't think the pointing finger was of much importance, only to show what to pay attention to during the demo. Makes me think that maybe you effect the energy field around the person which then moves their body. Trying to move their body directly would be a big detour then. Hmm. Since it's a different gate to access the person.

'different points commonly used' - do you mean points as in: points that point towards what is important in what's being thought, - or points as in acupuncture points? I mainly focus on the two foot hearts, two hand hearts, Hui Yin and Ba Hui and the lower dantian. Middle dantian and upper dantian tend to lead to problems for me, if I focus too much on them directly. Indirect focus (paying attention, observing) seems to work much better.

Do people regain their balance on their own after such demos, or can you end up hurting them on some level without being aware of it?

Thanks.

[everything]

partly wonder if the finger is there just to help your yi. (and then qi follows yi). have you done the zhan zhuang where fingers of one hand point to palm of other, weight about 0/100 on back foot (same side as the pointing fingers)? what does that feel like to you?

[everything]

thought there was a quigga reply, then a windwalker reply here, but now it's gone. was really helpful.

[windwalker]

This may help to explain the thought and function of using the fingers to direct the Qi

"google translation"

”The source of strength is the exhausted ground of sufficient internal strength. There are two sources of motion in the human body. One is located in the middle of the line connecting the lower corners of the two shoulders on the back. The other place appears at the root of the middle finger above the heart of the hand when the inner strength has advanced to a higher level.

The former teacher taught this tune "the source of strength to get started". When practicing boxing, the source of movement of the street is the place where the internal energy of the whole body is scattered.

The internal energy required for each boxing posture must come from the source of energy, and lead to the hands through the upper or lower lines of the two arms.


The use of the energy source is very restrained. When the momentum is promised, the corresponding internal energy is urged to lead to the landing point. After the internal energy reaches the predetermined landing point, the energy source immediately

Those who let go of empty space say that the mystery of the source of strength is "empty as soon as it is fit".

The conversion and transformation of various internal forces should also be achieved through the exchange of energy sources, for example, when the four positive internal forces
When it is changed to the four-attached internal energy, as long as the internal strength of the internal energy is changed in the same way, without any change in the body, it will be able to interact with each other. The source of strength in the hands is the same as that of Guandu Xiaoji. (circle one 10)

Key points: Use it when the strength of the hand card and the strength of the back are incompatible.
After the practice is advanced, when you use the power of the hand, its continuity and power are almost faster than those of the masters, that is, the tune-lou hands point to seek."

There are a lot of prerequisites that one has to archive before the idea expressed can be used...ie becomes a "reality".
Adam and other teachers exhibit the use of this method. if one looks at their demos the use of the fingers or palm are used, not mentioned directly....

If you watch what this teacher does,,,watch his fingers and and hand position

[everything]

really interesting, thanks a lot

[windwalker]

a little more theory regarding the use of finger

对上手状态的理解
唐凤池 杨式汪脉太极拳的主要特点是“点断拍”，所谓“学通点
断是真传”，点断劲的核心是上手，而如何才是真正的上手， 这既令学习者魂牵梦萦，又令大家无所适从。

Google translation

understanding of mastery
Tang Fengchi

The main feature of Yang-style Wangmai Taijiquan is "point and break", the so-called "learning through point



At the same time, it is neither the mastery of perception nor the mastery of strength, but the mastery of mind, or the mastery of true intention. "It's not broken, and the strength is not sharp", in fact, it is a state of "communication", the so-called "difficult to seek communication". If the other party exerts force, if he emphasizes softening through the body, he often returns to himself, or runs away or throws away.


Second, getting started is also the state of "zero", that is, the state of "Tai Chi". Everything is described in this state . The upper hand is "zero", it is Tai Chi, it is Zhong, and it is Hun Yuan. The so-called "centering" is not the center in the geometric sense, not the central axis, not the center, not the center of gravity, nor the dantian...

It is the center of the root of the middle finger. In fact, the center of inner strength is a state .

The so-called "hunyuan" does not mean that it is rounded and others cannot enter. Because there is nothing produced, it is "zero"; "zero" is the mixed element, because if there is nothing, the opponent will have no focus and will not be able to exert force.

Third, getting started is also running through every step, and the whole body is a family. Anyone who knows how to drive knows that when you step on the gas pedal or brake, there is a period of invalid travel ahead, and the gas pedal and brake don't work, and then you step on it, and then you gradually gain strength. The same is true for the joints of the human body.

Each joint cannot be exerted anytime and anywhere. It needs to be adjusted or there is a process of changing the mind before it can be exerted. It seems that there is a tendon to connect them. After every joint is connected, every invalid stroke is eliminated, and force can be exerted at any time, but there is no state of force.

This is the continuous penetration. In other words, Jiuqu beads, each bead is connected.

This kind of connection is neither a connection of strength, nor is it just the spreading of "Qi".



It is a state of unity of body and mind, and unity of knowledge and action, the so-called "combination of spirit, spirit and energy".

Most martial arts sects require "drumming the gate of life", and many people deliberately protrude the lumbar spine at the gate of life. In fact, they don't understand the real essentials. In fact, it is "passing". If you want to break the opponent's ball...you will naturally drum the goal, and you don't need to make a posture of drumming the goal.

While it makes for interesting reading...with some feeling they understand it...
The interesting part is almost always when shown, it tends to be question by those feeling they understand it....

The starting point of PH really depends a lot on the type and focus of ones training, with all training correct depending on focus...

[Bao]

The thread title is "starting push hands", but it soon turned into advanced theory and philosophy. Maybe not what you would teach beginners. Unless your goal is to keep them as perpetual beginners.

Beginning push hands is to learn how to adapt to physical movement, and then to learn how to capture the opponent's center and learn how to feel the opponent's balance to cut his root. And at the same time, you need to learn how to keep relaxed, balanced and your mind calm while someone is trying to push and drag you, get you out of balance. For beginners, all talk about consciousness, yi, jin etc etc is just confusing, redundant and make them focus on the wrong things.

So far, I believe from everything I have watched on Google, I have only heard teachers speaking a lot theory and philosophy, and not found one single teacher who really taught something practically valuable for a beginner to really learn and understand push hands. Well... maybe Chen Zhonghua has some videos. Maybe there is someone else, but I can't really think of anyone else.

[windwalker]

The thread title is "starting push hands", but it soon turned into advanced theory and philosophy. Maybe not what you would teach beginners. Unless your goal is to keep them as perpetual beginners.

Beginning push hands is to learn how to adapt to physical movement, and then to learn how to capture the opponent's center and learn how to feel the opponent's balance to cut his root. And at the same time, you need to learn how to keep relaxed, balanced and your mind calm while someone is trying to push and drag you, get you out of balance. For beginners, all talk about consciousness, yi, jin etc etc is just confusing, redundant and make them focus on the wrong things.

So far, I believe from everything I have watched on Google, I have only heard teachers speaking a lot theory and philosophy, and not found one single teacher who really taught something practically valuable for a beginner to really learn and understand push hands. Well... maybe Chen Zhonghua has some videos. Maybe there is someone else, but I can't really think of anyone else.

"I have only heard teachers speaking a lot theory and philosophy,"

Are you not, among others also espousing your own theory and philosophy with nothing to show that one could draw any conclusions from ?