Starting Push Hands Training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby everything on Wed May 31, 2023 12:54 pm

as seen in this board, people must have all kinds of different experience levels and qualitatively different experiences. not everybody is talking about the same stuff from the sounds of it. it becomes too difficult to discuss. at least in your class, there is a way to deal with it. in sports and games and probably arts, it's nice when everyone is at a similar level. if there's an incredibly wide disparity, guess you are just helping each other from a very different place.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Wed May 31, 2023 9:53 pm

Bao wrote:How would you teach yi, jin and qi to a beginner in a practical, useful manner?


I wouldn't, because I don't believe I could.

My same old tune when it comes to tai chi;
You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there

The various physical elements and attributes of tjq are - as scattered/disorganized as they may be from one individual to the next - innately human in the case of almost everyone.

Latent 'tai chi abilities' are indirectly developed throughout most peoples' formative years of life, and on into adulthood.

I show others how to physically experience and explore 6 Harmonies via Nine Temple Qigong. It's perfect for any one and everyone. The exercises are simple, straightforward movement patterns that anyone can play at with their current level of balance and coordination.

Nine Temple Qigong contains every bit of information that a tjq form contains regards tjq's basic principles and methods - 6 Harmonies, Torso Methods, 8 Gates...


Bao wrote:How would "qi" or "jin" be useful for someone who hardly can move balanced and coordinated?


Balanced and coordinated, eh...by whose standards? Yours? Theirs?

Nine Temple Qigong is instantly 'useful' because the exercises address a person's current level of balance and coordination. The simplicity of the movement patterns allows the beginner to be Free and Easy in the practice. Free and Easy is the best way to explore tjq's principles and methods in both solo, and partner training.

IME, if a teacher starts people off doing whatever form(s) their style practices, they've discarded the beginner's natural movement, balance and coordination, and cranked the performance demands to 11. Of course they're not going to be 'balanced and coordinated' - they've maybe been sabotaged by the pretentiousness of their teacher for the sake of the far by ignoring the near, here and now.



Bao wrote:6 Harmonies: How would a beginner that haven't developed any qi or yi have use of "harmonizing yi with qi"?


No qi or yi development needed as people already have those attributes 'hidden' in the various actions and phases of actions of their mind/body dynamic. Nine Temple Qigong is one method of digging deep into the experience and exploration of their latent tjq through the mindful application of what they currently are able to organize within their mind/body expression of the 6 Harmonies. Proper training and time spent takes care of everything else...

In solo training, NTQ involves a lot of non-doing (Neutrality Principle) while moving slowly, or not at all.

In partner work, the absence of context in the various drills and exercises I've made up on the spot over the years maintains the integrity of Neutrality Principle. Giving the beginner just enough pressure that they either create their own solutions or experience failure.

The most important thing a more experienced partner/instructor can do is to let the beginner learn to teach themselves while discovering on their own how to bring out what's already there. Then, the teacher can just sit back and let the money roll in 8-)

Isn't it the teacher's job to recognize the expressions of those 'qualities' and impart an awareness to them whenever they reveal themselves. Further, the teacher should know how to help the beginner repeat the experience so it can be an ingrained point of entry, on-demand, for the beginner to play with on their own terms.


Bao wrote:Give me a couple of examples of practical advice WW has written about, specifically meant for a beginner.


Why are you asking me?

WW and I are so far apart in our approaches in terms of training, levels of understanding and experiences/life-paths that any agreement our trainings may have are entirely coincidental. I think we share the same ideas about a lot of things, but take a very different approach to putting those ideas into practice.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby charlie_cambridge on Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:26 pm

In our school we start push hands from day one. My teacher PK mentioned that traditionally some schools wanted students to develop the correct elastic force in their form etc before beginning push hands and it made sense in theory, but his personal experience (having taught hundreds of students himself and seen thousands between his teacher HXX's classes and himself) was that delaying the start of the push hands training just tended to result in students taking longer overall to learn.

We only train the fixed pattern push hands. According to PK, Huang Xingxian did free push hands for demo purposes only, not as a training method.

I consider free push hands as really just for "introductions" to someone from a different school as a way to see what the other person has, so as an occasional test but not a training method. When I asked PK he agreed with this approach saying it's maybe ok to occasionally free push as a reality check/test but not recommended as regular training method.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:47 pm

What's the reason that you want to train push hand, but you don't want to spar/wrestle? Does anybody have answer for this question?
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby Doc Stier on Thu Jun 01, 2023 9:13 pm

johnwang wrote:What's the reason that you want to train push hand, but you don't want to spar/wrestle? Does anybody have answer for this question?

Most of the tournament push hands competitors ARE wrestling, but usually not well enough to participate in actual wrestling venues such as competitive Greco-Roman wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu, or Shuaijiao.

As a result, competitive push hands competitors generally don't display either good TCC principles and techniques or good wrestling techniques. Thus, the rare few who do are the exception rather than the norm. :-\
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby twocircles13 on Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:10 pm

johnwang wrote:What's the reason that you want to train push hand, but you don't want to spar/wrestle? Does anybody have answer for this question?


Although @Doc Stier gave a good answer, let me answer in a little different way.

Back on page 3, I shared some of Chen Fake’s statements about push hands and what constituted push hands in his mind. Here are a few relevant lines from that quote.

He [Chen Fa-ke] said, "Pushing hands is the foundation for sparring. It can only be taught if the students already know, from practicing the forms, what peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou and kao are. The functions of those eight basic techniques cannot be taught if the students don’t know them from the forms. When students try to push hands with one another too early, they don’t know how to neutralize the oncoming force [for example], so they use strength in their attempts of counter-attack. Human tendency of fearing to lose causes this. When the opponent feels a resisting force, he will exert more force to counterattack it and, in the end, the one who is stronger wins the round. This is contrary to the Taiji principle of “not losing and not fighting back". This is dangerous because it reinforces what is wrong and students will never even begin to understand what Taijiquan is."


In other words, there are lessons that need to be learned from push hands including others beyond the eight listed in the quote. The goal of taijiquan training is to ingrain these responses when one encounters force to replace one’s natural reactions, such as resisting, using strength, using certain natural timings, etc. With proficiency in push hands one can move on to other things.

Traditionally and archaically, when one had gained proficiency in push hands, one moved on to self-defense and weaponry. Today, beyond forms, this is rare. However, today, push hands could be a gateway to sport fighting, wrestling, other martial arts, or whatever one wanted to do.

So, it is not that push hands precludes one from wrestling, ideally one would learn the lessons of push hands well to gain a competitive advantage in wrestling.
Last edited by twocircles13 on Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby Bao on Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:24 am

BruceP wrote:My same old tune when it comes to tai chi;
You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there


Oh… everyone is a push hands master, you just have to bring it out…

And you do it by your qigong… ok, got it!

BruceP wrote:Isn't it the teacher's job to recognize the expressions of those 'qualities' and impart an awareness to them whenever they reveal themselves. Further, the teacher should know how to help the beginner repeat the experience so it can be an ingrained point of entry, on-demand, for the beginner to play with on their own terms.


I know teachers who like to push around their students. They don’t teach them anything, just push them around. And do you know what? They still suck after 20, 30 or 40 yrs of practice.

BruceP wrote:
“Give me a couple of examples of practical advice WW has written about, specifically meant for a beginner.”

Why are you asking me?

WW and I are so far apart in our approaches in terms of training, levels of understanding and experiences/life-paths that any agreement our trainings may have are entirely coincidental. I think we share the same ideas about a lot of things, but take a very different approach to putting those ideas into practice.


My whole post was about teaching practical things to help beginners. It was YOU who brought up WW. I guess you don’t even have a clue about what you are talking about?
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby windwalker on Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:08 am

Appledog wrote:On the other side of the coin, there seems to be the opinion that push hands shouldn't be started until possibly many years after practice -- as many as 10. That there needs to be some kind of breakthrough into "something" -- I am not sure what -- dantian rotation, qi movement, not sure.

A teacher that echoes a certain amount of time regarding training certain things.
He mentions "datnian" rotation among other things...gives a rationale of why it should not be taught early..
He mentions 10yrs of training....also echoed by my teacher..only after having spent the time do I now have an understanding of why...this is so...




So I am here to ask the respected citizens of rumsoakedfist, when do you think a student, in general, should start push hands training?
I am not looking to push people into it "as soon as possible" neither do I want to delay someone's training. But, when is a reasonable, rational time to begin? Thanks.

p.s. I am talking about cooperative push hands of the various kinds, at least in the beginning, as described, for example, in the Wang Fengming book, or the Ma Hong video. Not necessarily competitive push hands, which I believe comes later.


Not a fan of whats called push hands even though I've judged some events for others hosting them...

The practice has been labeled by different names depending on line of practice..Some of the naming conventions make more sense to me,,"rubbing hands" rolling hands" ect..
referring to what their practices focus on and attempt to develop..

Just learning basic standing practices can take some time developing the attributes of it..
there are pros and. cons of this practice also...

some teachers do not advocate the standing that some practice, feeling the form practice should be considered as a type of moving standing pratice..
another thread maybe :P



What he shows very much the way we practiced in Beijing and how I structure my own practice.
ie. all practice could be viewed as push hands, push hands using this naming convention is the same as applied applications.

The main differences depending on line of practice "patterns used" and development stages arising from the patterns
such as 4 corners ect...

Learned PH as a practice during my first intro into the world of taiji ..focusing on patterns ect...so much so that it was hard to break out of the patterns...
CMC practitioners that I've met also seem to be stuck in the pattern..

Wasn't until developing my own practice, meeting my last teacher was I able to be free of them although I do use them as a "starting" point for new people to use for practice.

The style and method used in China, can be quite rough..They tend to use it as a testing and proving of method...While understandable, IME does lead to false conclusions
evidenced by what happens when some who engage with others not into push hands...

depending on how its practiced, used and why.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:36 am

Sometimes starting pushing from day one is just a method of breeding in bad habit that make it easy to manipulate students to become fodder for the teachers tricks
It is not when things are taught but how
A student taught well becomes the wind that pushes the teacher to higher levels
A student taught to be a dupe becomes an trap that keeps the teacher bound to the lower levels
What’s worse the malaise can infect the entire lineage for generations eternally
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:44 pm

The OP has stated that, "the push hand is an intermediate step between forms and sparring."

So let's say that if we all agree that:

1. Form is beginner level training.
2. Push hand is intermediate level training.
3. Sparring/wrestling is advance level training.

My question is, "Should everybody will move from step 2 to step 3 soon or later"?
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:44 pm

Leaving out quite a few steps there
Walking 4 hands
Ta lu
San shou
San Da
It’s not if we spar or wrestle but how
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:45 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Leaving out quite a few steps there
Walking 4 hands
Ta lu
San shou
San Da
It’s not if we spar or wrestle but how

How long should one wait until he starts to train sparring/wrestling? 30 years old? 40 years old? 50 years old?
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:12 pm

All depends on the student his background and his aptitude
6 months in!!!!
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:27 pm

wayne hansen wrote:All depends on the student his background and his aptitude
6 months in!!!!

So, for Taiji system, if push hand is required before sparring/wrestling then push hand should be trained within 6 months, or even within 3 months.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:29 pm

It is part of my classes from day one
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