Starting Push Hands Training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby Quigga on Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:58 am

everything wrote:partly wonder if the finger is there just to help your yi. (and then qi follows yi). have you done the zhan zhuang where fingers of one hand point to palm of other, weight about 0/100 on back foot (same side as the pointing fingers)? what does that feel like to you?


Feels like even if both hands are separate, they're still connected by something when I move them. It's not quite in the body, but also not really outside. Dunno. When I move the back hand, it feels like there's something in my front palm that gets pushed and pulled the same way that I do the physical movement; while keeping the front palm in place. The back fingers feel pointy and sharp, kind of? The hands get quite warm. The space between the arms gets kind of gooey and sticky. This gooey feeling spreads around my skin and it feels like the all the bones in my body are floating somehow; some more some less. Also lots of general goose bumps, and tingly electric feelings that seem to follow predetermined pathways.

As a side note, my physical heart feels tingly and funny. I can feel it like a fist in the left side of my chest, and can feel it beating quite clearly, even when I haven't done any exercise. I was also doing lots of stretching in the neck and jaw areas, bc they felt very tight. The left side more so than the right sight. My left chest feels constricted and tight. Or maybe it was so all along, but I just didn't notice before. I will try to relax the area.
Last edited by Quigga on Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:10 am

Bao wrote:Oh… everyone is a push hands master, you just have to bring it out…


I hadn't thought of that. Maybe not "everyone", but for some, it's totally within the realm of possibility if that was their ultimate goal.
That you would draw that conclusion from what I wrote, though, is pretty ridiculous.

Bao wrote:And you do it by your qigong… ok, got it!


Push hands proper has never been the goal for myself or the people I've trained. But the 9 Temple Exercises and Nine Temple Qigong has been tested fairly extensively in different full-contact formats both in the ring and on the mat. I've shown some of that work here at RSF over the years as solo training and application.

All I've ever seen of your 'work' are words, words, and more words...

Bao wrote:I know teachers who like to push around their students. They don’t teach them anything, just push them around. And do you know what? They still suck after 20, 30 or 40 yrs of practice


Yup right along with the guy who has trained tjq for 30+ years and still can't teach his students how to experience, organize and coordinate the Six Harmonies.

Bao wrote:My whole post was about teaching practical things to help beginners


You cited the generic litany of lip-service directives that are as ad nauseam as they are meaningless without some sort of outline as to the means and methods of achieving those directives.

This is what I was commenting on;
"For beginners, all talk about consciousness, yi, jin etc etc is just confusing, redundant and make them focus on the wrong things"

My argument was that what you consider to be "the wrong things" are actually the most basic, important things, if push hands is to be practiced as an applied method of tai chi. Without 6 Harmonies, push hands is just wrestling done badly.

Bao wrote: It was YOU who brought up WW. I guess you don’t even have a clue about what you are talking about?


Yeah,that went over your head. Some of us haven't changed our tune.

You've re-written the verses of yours enough times that the chorus no longer means anything.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
General question to anybody reading this:

Are LSY's first and second gen people the only ones who teach Nine Temple Qigong as the gateway to Six Harmonies?

A couple of us RSFers (they and I sharing no common lineage) have described some of the practical work involved regards our respective practices, but I've never seen it discussed anywhere else.
Last edited by BruceP on Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:44 am

BruceP wrote:Without 6 Harmonies, push hands is just wrestling done badly.

Good wrestling requires 6 harmonies too.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby windwalker on Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:56 am

Thought some might find some insight from this...

Bruce has indirectly touched on it over the years....

JW's teacher shows it in the gif..


Image

To achieve Wuji, is there a practice method? Yes, Taoists call the state of the unity of heaven and man, the unity of man and earth, and the unity of Tao and Wuji. Someone may ask, people are people, I am me, the sky is the sky, the earth is the earth, why are they one? In fact, if you put heaven, earth, people, and me within your perception range, then heaven, earth, people, and me are one.



So, we see a lot of promoters now, what is thebiggest question?

As soon as two people fight each other, they have already regarded each other as opponents first, and this state has nothing to do with Tai Chi.

So what is the first thing to do in Taijiquan?

It means that as soon as you meet and take over the other party, you will immediately become one with him and feel every move of the other party.

The fluctuation of the other party's air must be within the range of my perception.

It is very clear in the theory of boxing: "People don't know me, I only know others, and heroes are invincible, and they all come from this!"
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby Bao on Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:35 pm

BruceP wrote:Push hands proper has never been the goal for myself or the people I've trained.


So you are not even interested in PH, explains a lot.


But the 9 Temple Exercises and Nine Temple Qigong has been tested fairly extensively in different full-contact formats both in the ring and on the mat. I've shown some of that work here at RSF over the years as solo training and application.


Sure, learn some magic qigong, you can automatically fight and win full contact matches. Ok... -woot-

::)


Yup right along with the guy who has trained tjq for 30+ years and still can't teach his students how to experience, organize and coordinate the Six Harmonies.


Showing and teaching 6 harmonies is easy. But only the 3 external harmonies are useful for beginners. If you haven't even developed qi, yi or jin, you CAN NOT harmonize them. So beginners cannot understand the 6H. And I don't think you do either. :P


Without 6 Harmonies, push hands is just wrestling done badly.


How would you know? You are not even interested in PH. ::)


Yeah,that went over your head.


Jibberish usually does. When asked a question, you don't have any answers, just running around in circles like a dog chasing its tail.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:55 pm

As far as I can see the temple chi gung dosent teach 6 harmonies very well
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby everything on Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:09 pm

Quigga wrote:
everything wrote:partly wonder if the finger is there just to help your yi. (and then qi follows yi). have you done the zhan zhuang where fingers of one hand point to palm of other, weight about 0/100 on back foot (same side as the pointing fingers)? what does that feel like to you?


Feels like even if both hands are separate, they're still connected by something when I move them. It's not quite in the body, but also not really outside. Dunno. When I move the back hand, it feels like there's something in my front palm that gets pushed and pulled the same way that I do the physical movement; while keeping the front palm in place. The back fingers feel pointy and sharp, kind of? The hands get quite warm. The space between the arms gets kind of gooey and sticky. This gooey feeling spreads around my skin and it feels like the all the bones in my body are floating somehow; some more some less. Also lots of general goose bumps, and tingly electric feelings that seem to follow predetermined pathways.

As a side note, my physical heart feels tingly and funny. I can feel it like a fist in the left side of my chest, and can feel it beating quite clearly, even when I haven't done any exercise. I was also doing lots of stretching in the neck and jaw areas, bc they felt very tight. The left side more so than the right sight. My left chest feels constricted and tight. Or maybe it was so all along, but I just didn't notice before. I will try to relax the area.


Your first description is similar to what I felt like after experimenting with this zhan zhuang. It felt like an electric feeling energy was going from my finger to the other palm at first. Later, it went around from that palm back to the finger. If I barely moved the finger, it happened again. This was strange at the time, so I tried the other side. Same thing. Like qi follows yi, but the tiny movement as well. I tried this more in 50/50 "hug tree" stance, and my ph partner lightly pushed me. On the inside, it felt the same as the zhan zhuang. On the outside, as if his push "pushed himself". That's what we both felt, but I didn't feel "jin". I guess he felt "jin", but I just felt the normal zhan zhuang "qi" feelings similar to ones you described. This is probably when you should start "beginner push hands". Edit: on the two become one thing, that's also what it felt like. Hard to describe. As if his "push" was "borrowed" and sent a sort of signal through my "energy" circulating as if to come back out and push himself though it felt like nothing different to me. I remember when getting pushed by Ben Lo, other people said he put his hand over someone else's who was then touching a ph partner. He "pushed" and they felt "qi" but did nothing, and the other person felt "pushed". Of course that sounds totally impossible, and people get very caught up in "how can that possibly be" or "that's not possible" and fall down a long, theoretical rabbit hole that has no answers. I have no idea how, either. It seems similar to the AI thing that wirelessly transmits a signal to the implant in the bionic guy's spine to tell his legs to move. Doesn't seem possible. The AI doesn't have any vocabulary, just neural networks trying to translate signals to then send other signals. Like there is a conduit that transmits the signal to the other person/body part. Imho, "push hands" is about learning to merge your external "judo" art with your internal neigong. that might take forever to begin. If you have neither of those skills, it's about learning some basic external patterns but mostly working form and starting the process. That is impossibly frustrating and not understandable when other people are "breaking boards" or throwing bodies. ymmv. I think that's why sometimes only people who don't care about MA acquire some skill first. And why the rest of us are diverted for so long or give up or make shit up to have the brain try to fill in gaps that make no sense. Not sure about the side notes (maybe better viewed via TCM or modern medicine lens than IMA one?).
Last edited by everything on Mon Jun 05, 2023 7:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby Quigga on Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:18 am

If you try to / force things to happen, it won't work. You have to be honest to yourself in what you're actually feeling, even if that feeling is very small, undifferentiated and uncoordinated. Then you just work with that, in accordance to the method chosen. That, over time, will result in Jin, rather than Li. But I need much more exposure to what various people believe Jin is, to make such a statement broadly, lol.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:33 am

Not all roads lead to Rome
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby Quigga on Mon Jun 05, 2023 12:21 pm

My first reaction was to get offended and say:

Not every proverb is meaningful. How do you even know you're in Rome, except for other supposed Romans telling you that's the case? And is it still Rome, if under a different name or banner? And maybe some people actually hate the weather in Rome, or the food? And if every road leads to Rome, what's the point of going on a road trip, except for enjoying the journey?

And then I thought: god dang it, you might actually be right. What a hoot :D
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby everything on Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:07 pm

This makes me think of the youtube video of the Latin-speaking nerd who went to Rome to try speaking Latin to Italians, and they're kinda like "WTF dude" and some are quite annoyed. He then goes to Vatican City, and they're like "um ok I speak ecclesiastical Latin, ok sure, I follow you".
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby everything on Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:08 pm

Quigga wrote:If you try to / force things to happen, it won't work. You have to be honest to yourself in what you're actually feeling, even if that feeling is very small, undifferentiated and uncoordinated. Then you just work with that, in accordance to the method chosen. That, over time, will result in Jin, rather than Li. But I need much more exposure to what various people believe Jin is, to make such a statement broadly, lol.


I don't mean to generalize. Have only one data point, no real patterns, def no reproducible "not forcing it" yet-on-purpose ability. This is difficult stuff.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:47 pm

Et um spiriti sanctu
Last edited by wayne hansen on Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:20 pm

Bao wrote:
So you are not even interested in PH, explains a lot


Another one of your wild assumptions.

Mistaking the technique for the goal

If someone is training for push hands competition, push hands proper might be the goal. Otherwise, it's just another training method.


Bao wrote:
Showing and teaching 6 harmonies is easy. But only the 3 external harmonies are useful for beginners. If you haven't even developed qi, yi or jin, you CAN NOT harmonize them. So beginners cannot understand the 6H. And I don't think you do either


Wait, so you think there are 3 "external harmonies" that are separate from or otherwise exclusive of what..."three internal harmonies"? How can one practice coordinating the limbs and torso without being mindful, intentional and energetic in that practice? I think it's impossible, but I'd love to read your answer.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:21 pm

wayne hansen wrote:As far as I can see the temple chi gung dosent teach 6 harmonies very well


How far can you see, Wayne? What are you looking at?
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