Starting Push Hands Training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Jun 05, 2023 5:41 pm

Indépendant arm action for a start
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:22 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Indépendant arm action for a start


OK

I was asking if you were seeing as far as video, book, or personal practice

I'd have to agree with your original comment if it comes from watching what's available on YT
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 06, 2023 12:30 pm

All three
It was a set I was taught that I no longer practice
There are so many better things to spend my time on
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:12 pm

wayne hansen wrote:All three
It was a set I was taught that I no longer practice
There are so many better things to spend my time on

Agree with you 100% there. Any training that's violate the 6-harmony principle is not worthwhile training.

In the past many days, I have drilled this combo so many times. One day I like to coordinate my punch with my leading foot landing. next day I like to coordinate my punch with my back foot landing.

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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:36 pm

Indépendant arm action for a start
wayne hansen wrote:
All three
It was a set I was taught that I no longer practice
There are so many better things to spend my time on


Ah...perfect
Yeah, "independent arm action"/hinging is corrected easily enough depending on where the person's disconnected in each of the exercises.

With prayer wheel, people often hinge at the elbow and to a lesser degree, the shoulder as they move their body rearward and forward over their feet. While holding a weighted ball or medicine ball at the rearward position where the hands are at the bottom of the rotation - begin moving forward and release/toss the ball at the forward-most position where the hands and forearms are horizontal -as the hands are at the forward quarter of their rotation.
With the anticipation of tossing the ball at that point in the rotation of the arms and hands, almost everyone will naturally shift forward with the torso with a nudge of pelvic tilt to send the ball on its way. The toss only needs to be a couple of feet so that too much loading/effort doesn't impose on the relaxed nature of the exercise.
That 'intervention' will usually eliminate hinging after only a couple of repetitions. It also addresses other things that may be causing a break in body-unity like tilting the body/head forward or sideways tilt in the pelvis etc.


A common hinging in the corn grinding exercise occurs in the shoulders and lower back. Holding a rag, piece of rope, your wallet is even better, get settled into the 'ready-stance' (feet shoulder width) and have someone grab the thing you're holding. Have the other person maintain a readable, consistant amount of resistance as you gently try to pull it from their hand - only enough resistance that you can't take it from their grip without shifting your weight. Relax back into 'ready-stance'. With a sudden, surprise action, yank the item out of the other person's hand. Most people will naturally initiate the recovery of their property by rotating their hips and turning their body while remembering that the feet are supposed to remain fixed.
Again, that intervention only requires a few reps to build a proprioceptive framework where the hinging is felt as an undesirable element of the movement. It also addresses a number of other things like lateral shifting and tilting of the head and torso.

There are simple remedies for almost every deficiency one may have in each of the exercises so that they build solid body-unity and cross-body dynamics without needing to practice much else in their first few months of solo training.

How much time did you spend doing the exercises?
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:23 pm

I spent enough time to see there shortcomings
They break YCF 10 points
If you can’t see that you shouldn’t really be commenting on tai chi
Can you point me to clips of someone doing them well
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:32 pm

wayne hansen wrote:As far as I can see the temple chi gung dosent teach 6 harmonies very well

Don't see much 6 harmonies in this clip. how can you train 6 harmonies if you don't move your feet?



I can see more 6 harmonies in this clip. Of course, it's 6 harmonies praying mantis.

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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:58 pm

I don’t think the first clip is what he is talking about
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Wed Jun 07, 2023 11:47 am

wayne hansen wrote:I spent enough time to see there shortcomings
They break YCF 10 points
If you can’t see that you shouldn’t really be commenting on tai chi
Can you point me to clips of someone doing them well


Re: YCF 10 points - that's not been my experience in learning or practicing them. But that's neither here nor there because the Nine Temple set isn't TJQ. We're talking about the qigong and its utility in developing six harmonies.

I recorded myself doing a few of the exercises way back when. I'll see if I can find the disc and maybe post a clip. But...given your surety that they don't teach the 6 Harmonies very well, what is the likelihood that you'd change your mind if you were to view clips of 'someone doing them well' (whatever that means)?

There are the movements themselves (Nine Temple Exercises), which are practiced with breathwork, and then there's the qigong (Nine Temple Qigong)- two different things.

During the time that your were doing the exercises, how much of that time was spent un-doing them?
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:57 pm

No time was taken to undo them
Like carrying a load when u put it down it is down
Don’t worry about convincing me
You mentioned the temple exercises put them up for others in the group
When I write it is not for the one posing the question it is for anyone who reads it
The silent majority here is the bigger part of the group
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:25 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
No time was taken to undo them

Ok, thanks

So you only groped one end of the elephant, as it were

That makes a lot of sense now

wayne hansen wrote: Don’t worry about convincing me
You mentioned the temple exercises put them up for others in the group
When I write it is not for the one posing the question it is for anyone who reads it
The silent majority here is the bigger part of the group


No worries with convincing anyone. I share your sense of, whatayacall...'altruism'.

Nothing at stake - nothing to gain - nothing to lose

Pardon me while I talk past you now...

The simplicity and ease with which the Nine Temple Exercises are learned and practiced is important because they imprint on the mind quickly and only need basic correction for the first-timer to have enough proprioceptive awareness to facilitate the discovery of their innate 'internal' elements - the primordial stirrings of their dantien. That's where the other half of practicing the Nine Temple Exercises comes in - Nine Temple Qigong. They are two different things. The exercises are done with breathwork in order to orient the body in each portion the cycle of each repetition in the movement patterns themselves, but that isn't the qigong.

Just as much time is spent each training session doing the qigong where the exercises are in the mind but the body doesn't move. They're done from their respective 'ready-stance' postures with nothing but intent focused as strongly as the person is able on executing each same-side (Picking Fruit et al) and cross-body (Corn Grinding et al) energetic from hand to foot and foot to hand which 'drives' the action in each exercise.

The breathwork that is practiced in the exercises is important because it's the initiator of the mind moving the qi as the first-timer begins to un-do/not-do the exercises. Once they stop breathing, they have it, and there isn't much else anyone can do to help them without getting in their way. They own that experience. It's exhausting and few beginners can do more than a couple of cycles with each exercise before they need to stop and take a break before beginning again. Proper training and time spent takes care of everything else.

There are specifics in each of the exercises having to do with where the intent is focused/stored in the body so as to direct the qi in accord with the dynamic of the movement. Corn Grinding has the intent focused entirely on elbows-to-knees at first, one side at a time, to match the cross-body dynamic.

Picking Fruit is really funky because the RCPM gets involved. It 'breaks YCF 10 points' because it aint tai chi, but it is. Kinda like the beam drill but with lights and nausea for beginners.

That's the formula for acquiring Six Harmonies via Nine Temple Qigong.

After lots of this kind of work, one can't help but appreciate that there is no 3-and-3 - the six are one.


*edit
Forgot to add this link to a thread where some of these ideas were discussed more than 10 years ago:


https://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php ... 15#p266270
Last edited by BruceP on Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby origami_itto on Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:53 am

John Wang, showing video of man brushing his teeth: "I don't see much roofing going on here."
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby BruceP on Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:32 am

johnwang wrote:how can you train 6 harmonies if you don't move your feet?


Easy...just don't move your hands.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby johnwang on Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:45 am

BruceP wrote:
johnwang wrote:how can you train 6 harmonies if you don't move your feet?

Easy...just don't move your hands.

When you train 6 harmonies, you have to design some movement that can help you to reach to your goal. If you just stand still and punch into the thin air, you will never be able to understand what 6 harmonies is.

1. hand and foot coordination -> 2. elbow and knee coordination -> 3. shoulder and hip coordination.

So the 1st step is hand and foot coordination. How can you achieve the 1st step if you don't move your hand or foot?

It's easier to train the 1st step of 6 harmonies by using this drill because the foot and hand coordination is very clear.



It's more difficult to train the 1st step of 6 harmonies by using this drill because the foot doesn't advance during some punches. This clip requires you to advance to the 2nd step - elbow and knee coordination.

Last edited by johnwang on Thu Jun 08, 2023 11:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starting Push Hands Training

Postby windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:28 am

johnwang wrote:When you train 6 harmonies, you have to design some movement that can help you to reach to your goal. If you just stand still and punch into the thin air, you will never be able to understand what 6 harmonies is.

1. hand and foot coordination -> 2. elbow and knee coordination -> 3. shoulder and hip coordination.

So the 1st step is hand and foot coordination. How can you achieve the 1st step if you don't move your hand or foot?

It's easier to train the 1st step of 6 harmonies by using this drill because the foot and hand coordination is very clear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exfHB8wBIRc

It's more difficult to train the 1st step of 6 harmonies by using this drill because the foot doesn't advance during some punches. This clip requires you to advance to the 2nd step - elbow and knee coordination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYgMlSZBovc


Harmony

congruity, simultaneously, concordant; consonant ect...

The clips show
maybe a different way of looking at it...? :P

What I note in the examples....given...
Stopping, over extended, not connected ect...in movement...


Not moving the hands as "BruceP" mentioned in answer to a question as way of harmonizing relationships between the what are called 6 harmonies.

Statically "not moving", ie "standing". typically tested by applying a small force to see if all are supporting each other, connected to each other...

expressing congruity, able to simultaneously express the whole body at any one point.. all with out movement, later integrated into movement.

Statically Like a ball not moving, dynamically like a ball in movement.

Nice clips BTW :) just seems confused "to me" trying to associate this with six harmonies....

One of the big distinctions between taiji movement, and other types of movement.
Found in my own practice I can no longer do PM movement anymore along with other movement methods because of the differences ...

It is quite interesting
Last edited by windwalker on Fri Jun 09, 2023 7:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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