Unbroken Circularity

[twocircles13]

Don’t mix your Qi’s. The qi of life, Chinese medicine, internal alchemy, structural engineering, wave dynamics are all different things, These things are not the same as the qi of Taijiquan training. This is a common mistake.

Could you explain then, what is the difference of the Qi in chinese medicine and the Qi of Taijiquan training? Thank you

Let’s not hijack this thread, but here is a short answer.

Apparently, I cannot. I have tried many times. Of course, my explanations are long and deep and drawn out. The most common response is between TL;DR and a blank stare. There are lots of misconceptions about what qi is, so it is like talking about a foreign language.

So, let’s try something new. First, there are different kinds of qi.

I recently watched this video. It is Adam Mizner discussing different kinds of qi. I have no kind of affiliation with him. He practices Yang Style: I practice Chen Style. But, he conveniently does a fair job of differentiating types of qi. If it does not automatically do it, start at 4:55.



Second, Mizner says he’s taking about "the qi that comes with practice.” I think of it as "the qi that comes from Taiji training", potayto-potahto. It comes from ingraining the training and its lessons into the body. Areas where qi may be involved include but are not limited to correct skeletal alignment, connection through the joints, timings, breathing, rotations, opening and releasing, and so on. These are all related to thinking the right things that cause the mind to interface with the body in specific ways. These all work together to create the skills of taijiquan.

While I am not an expert in Chinese Medicine, and within that broad category, there are a number of different schools of thought, Chinese Medicine is generally concerned with the balancing of factors within the body to create optimal health. It may concerned the qi within the pulses, expulsions, (blood, urine, saliva, and similar), breath, odors, reports of sensations, balance and symptoms in the jingluo and so on.

There is some overlap. They are both concerned with the human body, for example. When they look at qi and talk about it, they are talking about different kinds of qi for the most part. Even when you get as specific as internal alchemy and internal martial arts, there is a lot more overlap, but there are still differences, especially in the kinds of qi referred to. One may extend from taijiquan into Chinese Medicine embracing both, but this is unnecessary for either and the different kinds of qi within each still remain.

I hope generalizations like that help. Otherwise, we have to start with the nature of yin, yang and qi and build up from there.

[Bob]

Qi - expression of dynamic yin/yang relationships in contextualized settings - Yi Jing bottom line foundation - I've posted previous philosophical academic useful sources but I'm not going to beat a dead horse - throughout the arts I've experienced, alignment always implicitly inferred yin yang dynamic practice without having to obsess over qi and it's felt expression

[Quigga]

Qi is everything you can feel, imo. That's why there are so many different types and qualities of it. You can't feel a thought, generally speaking.

Xin is what allows you to feel, your heart-mind, or your regular old ego. With all of it's beliefs, just to make it more complicate. What's the difference between a personally held / valued belief and a thought? Have to think about that one a bit more myself.

Xing is the container of that ego, or rather, the shape that the heart-mind takes on. The configuration or structure of it. Xing like tiger would lead to different subjective experiences than xing like snake or rooster. Of course, if you never saw those animals or studied their qualities for a bit, it's not of that much use. So some part is left to imagination, sometimes, as not many people have survived encounters with predators, let alone completely unarmed. That may have been different in earlier times, no idea.

Yi is intention or willpower. A manifestation of Shen. When Shen grasps Qi to move it, Yi is the hand. When you aim with a paper ball with the trash can and try to get a feeling for the shot, you use your Yi to calculate the distance on a feeling level. Then you pull the trigger and make the shot.

Or when you stand still or lie down, then practice the form or drills by trying to feel exactly what you would when you were doing it in moving practice. That's another usage of Yi.

And Shen... is the part of you that is more directly connected to the divine / heaven / sky / universe than the small ego is. It's what persists between reincarnations, while the ego is dispersed upon biological death for everyone. It's more 'you' than 'you' will ever be on your own. It's also inherently smarter / wiser than the ego... And the source of inspiration, of wanting to go on some kind of journey.

The real difficulty is when the ego doesn't want to give up the false belief that it's of number 1 importance in the individual being. It's of equal importance. And so there arise the conflicts of 'I learned that I should do XYZ from various sources, or was conditioned to pursue this and that - but what do I actually, really want?'

This is my general understanding of it. And my parts are still somewhat fighting each other, lol. So maybe take it with some salt.

How to make movement smooth, round, harmonious is then by moving what you feel inside, and letting that feeling slowly merge into one. This part is very oversimplified.

[Quigga]

And then if you build up your qualities to feel and the qualities to perceive information - they're not the same imo - things get more complicated and interesting yet again.

And then you have inherent potential in the individual being to interact with those feelings and thoughts.

On the physical level, if the movement feels smooth inside and looks smooth on the outside, it's a good way towards becoming smoothly connecting, thus making every step one takes Tai Chi.

[Quigga]

Just remembered: there may be connections between what's inside the Xing and what the body shape looks like... Psychosomatics?

I obviously haven't got the whole formula myself, lol. If I think more about this stuff I'll only get confused. It's getting late.

Edit: or the Xing is the connection of heart-mind and body. Now that sounds better. Maybe

[twocircles13]

Qi - expression of dynamic yin/yang relationships in contextualized settings - Yi Jing bottom line foundation - I've posted previous philosophical academic useful sources but I'm not going to beat a dead horse - throughout the arts I've experienced, alignment always implicitly inferred yin yang dynamic practice without having to obsess over qi and it's felt expression

Yes, in my Chen Taijiquan tradition, Hong Junsheng wrote articles about qi, peng, chansi jin and a couple of other topics, then he quit talking about them or teaching using those terms. Even in China, there were so many interpretations and meanings for the terms that they became meaningless. Outside of China, it is even worse.

Additionally, these are manifestations of inputs. It’s more important to focus on the inputs and let the outputs, manifestations or resultants take care of themselves.

So, back to the topic, for Unbroken Circularity and chansi jin, the input is rotation.

[Quigga]

IMO quite arrogant to think you can talk for all of that's happening inside of China, and outside of China as well. Without you mentioning that what you wrote is just your opinion on things.

So what do you rotate? How do you rotate it? What's the goal of that rotating? How does the rotating show itself on the outside?

[Urs Krebs]

Let’s not hijack this thread, but here is a short answer.

Thank you for your answer. My opinion is a bit different. TCM, Qi Gong and Taijiquan work with the same Qi (if you believe in that conception). The way you're cultivating or using it is different though.

[Bao]

TCM, Qi Gong and Taijiquan work with the same Qi (if you believe in that conception). The way you're cultivating or using it is different though.

The same qi depends on your definition of qi. There's a big difference in theory, practice and results.

Qigong and TCM can work with the qi in the organs or limbs, etc. Most qigong is only concerned about houtian (post heaven/post natal) aspects. TCM only regulates houtian qi. Tai Chi doesn't care much about houtian qi at all, but aims to preserve and cultivate qiantian qi (pre heaven/pre natal).

[Urs Krebs]

TCM, Qi Gong and Taijiquan work with the same Qi (if you believe in that conception). The way you're cultivating or using it is different though.

The same qi depends on your definition of qi. There's a big difference in theory, practice and results.

Qigong and TCM can work with the qi in the organs or limbs, etc. Most qigong is only concerned about houtian (post heaven/post natal) aspects. TCM only regulates houtian qi. Tai Chi doesn't care much about houtian qi at all, but aims to preserve and cultivate qiantian qi (pre heaven/pre natal).

You are describing states of cultivation for different purposes in my definition (your words) of Qi. But let's agree to disagree.

[twocircles13]

TCM, Qi Gong and Taijiquan work with the same Qi (if you believe in that conception). The way you're cultivating or using it is different though.

The same qi depends on your definition of qi. There's a big difference in theory, practice and results.

Qigong and TCM can work with the qi in the organs or limbs, etc. Most qigong is only concerned about houtian (post heaven/post natal) aspects. TCM only regulates houtian qi. Tai Chi doesn't care much about houtian qi at all, but aims to preserve and cultivate qiantian qi (pre heaven/pre natal).

You are describing states of cultivation for different purposes in my definition (your words) of Qi. But let's agree to disagree.

We may agree or not, either is fine, but perhaps we agree.

In traditional Chinese “qi” is not a noun, not the way we define it in English. It is not a person, place or thing. The Chinese part of speech indicates that “qi” is a relationship or function. In this way, qi is always the same. It indicates a separation between yin and yang that defines a “form" whether that form is a person, a chair, a wall, a mountain, a river, or a vital function within a living being. It has the characteristic of having a cyclical manifestation, such as a life cycle, formation, birth, growth, maturity, death, decay, dissolution; or repeated cycles like the crests and troughs of waves.

Modern Chinese, of course, defines “qi” as a noun, gas; air; breath; smell or odor: weather; anger, annoyance or irritation; and excitement or morale, then as Chinese Medicine jargon, vital energy; and certain symptoms of disease. As a verb it means, to make angry, to annoy; to get angry; to bully or insult.

However, in the vernacular, we bandy “qi” about as if it were a thing and always the same thing, instead of the indicator of the presence of a specific type of relationship with defining characteristics.

And just to make it clear that I do not want to hijack this thread, as we move in correct unbroken rotations, one type of the qi of training taijiquan is manifest.

[origami_itto]

In traditional Chinese “qi” is not a noun, not the way we define it in English. It is not a person, place or thing. The Chinese part of speech indicates that “qi” is a relationship or function. In this way, qi is always the same. It indicates a separation between yin and yang that defines a “form" whether that form is a person, a chair, a wall, a mountain, a river, or a vital function within a living being. It has the characteristic of having a cyclical manifestation, such as a life cycle, formation, birth, growth, maturity, death, decay, dissolution; or repeated cycles like the crests and troughs of waves.

...

And just to make it clear that I do not want to hijack this thread, as we move in correct unbroken rotations, one type of the qi of training taijiquan is manifest.

A pot of water over a fire.
Wind blowing from the cool sea to the hot shores.

[everything]

anybody have some concrete examples of this topic or the sub-topics? guess not? (I'm ok with totally abstract philosophy ... but it'd be cool if the "circularity" was about something slightly more concrete, too. OP/appledog didn't really seem to specify what he wanted to talk about IIRC )

[origami_itto]

I dont' believe this idea of qi is abstract in the least. There's a lot of confusion in overlap of the ideas people want to hang on the word, but twocircles here has nailed it as far as I'm concerned.

Water flows down and soaks into the earth. Heat from the fire flows up and dissipates in the air. This is the natural way of entropy. What comes up must come down, etc. Qi dissipates.

A taoist seeks by various means in various contexts to reverse yin and yang in this regard and make them compliment each other. We put the water in the pot. We put the pot over the fire. The pot holds the water. The water catches the heat. We can cook rice or run a locomotive.

The wind flows because there is an area with high air pressure next to an area with lower air pressure. Where is the Qi? Is it the wind? Is it the heat rising? Is it the cool falling?

It's the relationship between these things. The Qi is defined by the entire organization of the system. Move or change an element and the Qi changes.

So in movement, instead of moving by pushing our skeleton around, shoving our meat, we create differences in potential within our body. As we let the body flow into one state it creates a potential for the next state, which we then let it flow into. Each movement contains the seed of the next movement. The initial condition to start the whole chain moving.

In fact, in reality, it's more like a series of tiny seeds, like a round of a song, each one starts before the last finishes so there is an unbroken circular movement.

This movement is smooth, it is powerful, it is fast, and it is very difficult to counter.

[everything]

maybe still abstract for me (which is fine, i'm not the let's only discuss punch-face guy), but damn, i like that writing. on a roll, man.