F̷a̷j̷i̷n̷ Bao Fali in Xingyiquan

[D_Glenn]

I found the original clip. It appears that it was only just a one day trip. And shorter than I remember.



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[D_Glenn]

On the Dantian and Transverse Abdominis Muscles (TrA / TVA) you can do a basic side plank (forearm on the ground) and use your free hand to feel the difference between each side of your abdomen.

[twocircles13]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yes it is the Abdominis. And they are involved in holding the Abdominal contents in. In Yin style Bagua we learn to use them in the same manner that yoga people perform Nauli Kriya - contracting only one half the abdomen inward. We, however, keep our abdomen pressed out, so that when only one side is contracting it turns our Yao (aka Dantian) to that side. We learn to lock everything to that contraction and that’s what gives us our waist power. Yes other muscles are involved in the movement of one’s Yao, but the average Joe doesn’t need to put their intention upon gaining full control over all the other muscles involved.

I’m sure you’re already aware that the Transverse Abdominis are also involved in supporting the lumbar. Along with other muscles of course. The Wuji stance is how one first trains their body to get their torso comfortably into a secondary fixed position. One doesn’t have to figure out what muscles are doing what to move their body into and out of this secondary position. But one does need to have somatic control over the two halves of the Transverse Abdominis because you have to be in control of the turning of your Dantian throughout the movement between the two positions. The muscles that support and hold the spine upright are doing it through isometric contraction, yet they also have to move and change to differing positions of the spine. It’s the isometric power that you can learn to harness to Spring from one position to the other. Like drawing a bow and releasing it. Since one should already have some somatic control over the Transverse Abdominis to Turn the Dantian (this is called Zhuanhuan) then you can also have the sense of them when you quickly spring from one position to the other (called Yaozhedie - waist folding).

So that’s why in my school of Baguazhang my Chinese teachers only talk about the Transverse Abdominis Muscles. It’s too slippery of a slope to put Intention beyond only the primary muscle that you need control over. Also note that bodywork and Tuina is a major part of Baguazhang, which requires intimate knowledge of anatomy but through touch and feel only. Like an Osteopat, Chiropractor or massage therapist. So my grand teacher was fully aware of the abdominal muscles and had their own names for them. So in this case it is just a simple matter of translating one to one.

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The TA is certainly contracted during Nauli Kriya, but the left-right movement is the contraction of the left and right branches of the Rectus Abdominus muscles, which is clearly visible during the exercise.

If you are getting twisting in the torso, you are also engaging the intern and external obliques.

I agree with the statement, " Yes other muscles are involved in the movement of one’s Yao, but the average Joe doesn’t need to put their intention upon gaining full control over all the other muscles involved.“ One of the worst things one can ever do to an athlete is get them thinking about their anatomy, especially labels, and biomechanics. That is why we use analogy, visualization, and kinesthetic awareness when we try to teach skills.

The more correct term is probably abdominal muscles or even tummy, belly, torso, or trunk muscles. For teaching, “Do this.” followed by demonstration without an explanation of how it is done is probably the best practices teaching method.

Your use of isometrics to train this movement is interesting. Isometrics tend to train strength in a relatively narrow band of muscular range of motion, but their ability to train speed is highly debated and not yet resolved, AFAIK. Do you use isometrics at different stages of the muscle contraction length?

[origami_itto]

I agree with the statement, " Yes other muscles are involved in the movement of one’s Yao, but the average Joe doesn’t need to put their intention upon gaining full control over all the other muscles involved.“ One of the worst things one can ever do to an athlete is get them thinking about their anatomy, especially labels, and biomechanics. That is why we use analogy, visualization, and kinesthetic awareness when we try to teach skills.

[Doc Stier]

I agree with the statement, " Yes other muscles are involved in the movement of one’s Yao, but the average Joe doesn’t need to put their intention upon gaining full control over all the other muscles involved.“ One of the worst things one can ever do to an athlete is get them thinking about their anatomy, especially labels, and biomechanics. That is why we use analogy, visualization, and kinesthetic awareness when we try to teach skills.

Agreed. Quite so indeed. That's a fac, jack.

[Giles]

I agree with the statement, " Yes other muscles are involved in the movement of one’s Yao, but the average Joe doesn’t need to put their intention upon gaining full control over all the other muscles involved.“ One of the worst things one can ever do to an athlete is get them thinking about their anatomy, especially labels, and biomechanics. That is why we use analogy, visualization, and kinesthetic awareness when we try to teach skills.

Agreed. Quite so indeed. That's a fac, jack.

In addition, all the times I've worked with learners who were doctors, physiotherapists etc. (but not already experienced IMA practitioner) then any specific references to functional anatomy just tended to mess them up even more. I could tell them which muscles or which skeletal connections or whatever they might like to activate, relax, give space to, but it put them straight back into a more habitual and detached mindset towards their own body. Resulting in stiffness and lack of connection. Here too, "analogy, visualization, and kinesthetic awareness" were much more productive

[johnwang]

Float with the air - don't think about power. Let power come out by itself. Forget your arms and legs. Let your whole body do the work.

I always believe when you don't think about

- power, that's your true power.
- speed, that's your true speed.

When you are

- young, you want to throw a punch that can kill a cow.
- old, you want to throw a punch that your body can feel good.

[D_Glenn]

Your use of isometrics to train this movement is interesting. Isometrics tend to train strength in a relatively narrow band of muscular range of motion, but their ability to train speed is highly debated and not yet resolved, AFAIK. Do you use isometrics at different stages of the muscle contraction length?

If you mean the side plank. We do some static isometric exercises. But I only mentioned that to feel how the muscle works naturally, and that was in regards to Dantian Turning (Zhuanhuan). And you can turn your Dantian side to side a small degree, without rotating your trunk.
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So, in my original post if everyone could just ignore the mentioning of the Transverse Abdominis muscles. I said that you could see him using the muscles. But not only can you not see them under clothing and skin but he’s also not intentionally using them.
I’m on the other side of the mountain when it comes to this movement and I’m currently retroactively figuring out underlying structures that are responsible. Stuff that a beginner would never need to know.

As I mentioned, I had no idea about anatomy when I learned this, and I think that is the way to go about learning it. I grew up skateboarding and learned by watching videos of professionals. Through mimicry. Monkey see, monkey do. Learning tricks without any instructions or guidance. On this lumbar movement I did rely on the videos but I was also able to see it in person and get feedback on what I was doing. The hardest part is dedicating hours a day with no results or end in sight. So hearing the words of encouragement was really important.

If you really think hard about this, the root mechanical movement of the lumbar and sacrum is something that is already a natural instinctual way that we move. It’s just that it’s being used in a completely different context. So it’s hard to make that mental leap and connect the two.

[D_Glenn]

The name that Chen Taijiquan gave this (XiongYaoZhedie Chest Waist Folding) I believe might be better because it’s actually named after a contraption that people could feel in their hands. I don’t know what that old contraption or device was exactly, (could possibly find it in Needham’s books). But the modern version is like this springing angle bracket that supports the legs of a folding table. It has to be popped into the locked position and popped to unlock it, but it’s moved freely before and after. Similar to the way the lumbar and Thoracic spine, through a lot of practice, can pop from the normal position of your spine, into a secondary position (the one you ingrain in Zhan Zhuang and Santishi - tailbone tucked, lumbar rounded, chest concaved). And then pop back into the normal position. Or move normally into a position and then Pop or Spring back. In actual usage you do not want to spend more than fractions of a second in the Tucked position. Spring into it to Fa Li, and then immediately Spring or move back into your normal posture. Only hold that posture during Standing or continuous Circle Walking.




Note that Zhedie (folding) should not be confused with the fighting method called Zhe (folding).

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[D_Glenn]

I think that Internal martial arts don’t have to continually be mistaught or shrouded in mystery by perpetually discussing them like Master Po talking down to Kwai Chang in riddles and platitudes.

I think that with open sharing of ideas and thoughtful discussion that we can propel these arts into the future. Great lineages of Chinese Internal Martial arts are dying out all the time because the youth in China couldn’t care less about them.

My teacher Dr. Xie said that he’s choosing to teach Westerners because they’re genuinely interested in these Internal Arts. And he said who knows someday the Westerners may be teaching the Chinese their own heritage when they regain interest in them.

[origami_itto]

I think that Internal martial arts don’t have to continually be mistaught or shrouded in mystery by perpetually discussing them like Master Po talking down to Kwai Chang in riddles and platitudes.
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Arnold said that people like to make fitness complicated so you have to pay them to decode it. Same shit here, just obfuscation for the sake of keeping you thinking there's some mystical secret you'll be ready for one day.

of course, the kung fu panda and the silent flute both ended with a mirror.

The shit is simple, just do the exercises and change happens. It helps to understand what's happening to your body in my opinion. Other folks may find other methods work better, they're welcome to them.

[D_Glenn]

Here’s a video clip I filmed in 2011. My teacher’s teacher was friends with Ma Gui and had him go learn everything he could from Ma Gui. This is a palm change from the Crab System that Dong Haichuan had taught him. In this clip on the downward double extending strikes I’m using Bolangjin, then spring back using Fanlangjin when the strikes reverse direction and hit upwards.



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[origami_itto]

Do you ever feel like the focus on this has lead to over emphasizing movement in the lower back?

[D_Glenn]

Do you ever feel like the focus on this has lead to over emphasizing movement in the lower back?

Not at all. The movement of the lower back is a natural movement. I did focus on learning it from roughly 1998 to 2001 but I was, and still am, using that natural instinctual movement to jolt all the flesh of my abdomen to start of wave of flesh moving, which is not natural, but I have made it a new- natural. Like riding a bicycle. You can’t Not know how to ride a bicycle after you learn how to. Like I said before, I have to use ‘a thought’ to not do it when I’m striking. We call this ‘Containing the Power’, or ‘Circling the Power Back Around’, which is a part of our practice. Let me see if I can find a video clip of it.

From your posts on this thread, you made it sound like you can easily do this?

[D_Glenn]

Here’s one of our forms from the Dragon System, using the Chopping Method. All of our forms are just 6 moves with a closing move to orient you back to the center of the circle. You really have to learn and then know a form really well before you practice this “Containing the Power” Method. It’s also helpful to actually be able to Fa Li (Issue Power) with the lumbar and Dantian, In order to actually have a Power to contain.
Notice that his Lumbar is always remaining in its normal position. But if you can Fa Li, then this practice can also be a kind of Neigong because it’s building up Intent, because you’re not releasing that power.



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