Chen Taiji, why the hate?

[Trip]

Why do you want to do that for?
Do you want head on collision, or do you want rear end collision? You can't have both.

No! "collision" is not my style.

For the Taiji I do
Optimally,
I want to strike the opponent at angle
in the direction they are already moving
or falling in.

I find it more efficient.
As in "More for Less"

But, I've given them "collision" too.

You can't have both.

That's not quite true
You seem to place too many limits on what can be done.

So, to each his own

[Trip]

using push to unbalance the opponent
increases the effect of a follow-up attack with a Punch or Kick.

When you use this strategy, how far do you push your opponent away?

- 3 inch?
- 6 inch?
- 1 foot?
- 2 foot?

First off,
You left out the word “unbalance”
I said, “Push-to-Unbalance.”

Secondly,
There are many more options than what you suggest.

Pushing to unbalance can be small
or it can be big
Or, somewhere in-Between

Unbalancing an opponent unbalances their mind.
That can create a small gap of opportunity for you to take advantage.

So, Timing is a part of the equation.

The following examples are not an exhaustive list
They do not include small pushes used effectively

Here is an effect Push by itself


Here is Taiji Guy doing push-to-unbalance
with follow up kicks that ended the fight.


Or you can follow up like Jon Jones, using Elbows.

[D_Glenn]

Those old gong fu challenge stories are the weirdest and basically just show the master using foul play

What part of it do you think is foul play

[everything]

Tell me you hate taiji without telling me you hate taiji.

[origami_itto]

Tell me you hate taiji without telling me you hate taiji.

What if you just hate EVERYBODY ELSE'S taiji?

[everything]

Tell me you hate taiji without telling me you hate taiji.

What if you just hate EVERYBODY ELSE'S taiji?

isn't this just the case of every individual on rsf / the internet

[D_Glenn]

My allergy is to push hands videos.

The Baguazhang Dragon system has Tui. The Dragon is the Zhen Trigram and oldest son. So it’s the most Yang of Bagua. The Tui has a Zhen (shocking/ shaking) quality and is first an open palm strike to cause injury at the point of contact. But being that it’s Yang, pushing someone away, and the possibility of them just coming back is accounted for in its methods and strategies. But another factor to think about is that Bagua was designed around being assaulted by multiple people. So using one opponent as a shield to fling and push around is also in the methods and tactics. But in general the Tui should already have caused injury before being pushed away. And hooking the legs is always done so most pushes will be instant falls to the ground, with their arms pinned, so they can’t break their fall. There’s also a lot of binary (ChaYi) movement where you push their arm one way, then when they resist you instantly shock push it the opposite way to try and affect their spine and neck. It’s also trying to smother an opponent by trying to keep them from generating power in their arms, or pushing their arms to affect the shoulder. And grabbing a wrist to combine Ling (leading) with a Tui strike. Example pulling the arm out to expose their ribs and trying to hit Zhangmen point.

The Dragon really is the animal that borrows a lot from Shuai Jiao (actually Kuai Jiao because it uses the legs more). It uses a 7 Star stance to get tighter angles to allow the stepping to cut in close and hook the legs, shins or ankles.

[wayne hansen]

As I’ve said here before
Push is not only about pushing
You can use many things to set up an opponent
Push is just one
Likewise push delivered at speed can be devestating
One of my last street confrontations was ended with a short double palm to the chest
What is the difference with hsing I tiger done slow and push done fast

[BruceP]

cross-check

[everything]

not about pushing but slapping. but this dumb 25 year old "argument" makes me think of this old video that made the rounds. talk about "pi quan". I'm sure she had no xingyiquan or MA training in her entire life.

[twocircles13]

Yes. Here’s and example from Chen Fak’s students.
fā 发 (發) - Hong Junsheng’s speciality
huà 化 - Tian Xiuchen’s speciality
ná 拿 - Chen Zhaokui’s speciality
dǎ 打 - Feng Zhiqiang’s speciality

I find it strange that Hong’s specialty is Fa, because I’ve never seen him do it, granted I haven’t seen every clip of him.

Hong’s fā is the proverbial four ounces, so it is hard to see.

Get in.
Set up.
Fa.

Watch starting at 0:45 and 0:55.





Watch starting at 0:20.





Get in. - Close the gap and get into position, angle, rotation, etc.

Set up. - Store up (potential) energy usually in the opponent. You prefer to use energy stored in his body, although there can be plenty of energy stored in your body.

Fa. - Issue, release, trigger with the proverbial four ounces. This usually involves releasing the unbalanced opponent, so they would fall if they didn’t to jump.


These are the same steps as setting a trap.
Position the trap.
Load the spring and set the trigger.
The prey bumps the trigger and springs the trap. In the push hands case above, either of you could release the trigger.

If you are thinking of this kind of Fa...



We do that too, but while this is learned on the First Path, it is only used on the Second Path of training. In other words, this is an energy release for breaking, dislocating, and inflicting other types of injury during self defense. It would be very difficult on your training partners to do this during push hands.

CXW is doing it for show, a demonstration for marketing. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. You just need to put it in context.

This is not the type of fa you would use to say, toss an opponent across the room during push hands. That is typically energy you have caused them to store within themselves. You hit the trigger, and they launch themselves into the air. You can use your energy, but that is a lower level taiji skill.

[johnwang]

At 0.13, his opponent steps in right leg so deep that give him an opportunity to use his left leg to sweep (or scoop) his opponent's right leg and take his opponent down. IMO, he has no intention to use his leg skill in Taiji push hand. This is also my general comment about most of the "push" video. We can see arms play with arms. But we don't see leg play with leg.

At 0.28, you can see some "leg play with leg".

[Trick]

Those old gong fu challenge stories are the weirdest and basically just show the master using foul play

What part of it do you think is foul play

The Dong should have gotten up and formally squared off and not taking advantage of the situation where challenger still focused paying respect to the royals - foul play I say.

But the weirdest part out of the many weird(such as using special fali to knock out someone’s teeth. and the knocked out teeth deliberately swallowed..as some examples) is that Dong, challenger and prince …….and probably many readers of the story think it was really a display of high mastery.

[wayne hansen]

I don’t agree with the way you say it but these guys never attack the teacher
They just do the exercise until he is ready to send them away

[D_Glenn]

Twocircles13, thanks for the reply.