Yang family

[origami_itto]

A martial arts historian said that YFC's book was ghost written by a journalist who had no knowledge about Tai Chi. Apparently YCF sold his name and didn't care very much.

Other martial arts historians have said differently? Do you have a more specific source?

As Cheng Man-Ching didn't write his "Master Cheng's Thirteen Chapters on T'ai Chi Ch'üan", I strongly doubt he had anything to do with YCF's book.

This is news to me! Definitely need more information on this.

[Trick]

Wiles has some great analysis of this and other examples of the Yang dishonesty.

. It was here that he studied
Taoist yoga

When “Taoist yoga” is written you know it’s fakery translation

[origami_itto]

Wiles has some great analysis of this and other examples of the Yang dishonesty.

. It was here that he studied
Taoist yoga

When “Taoist yoga” is written you know it’s fakery translation

That's not a translation, that's a translator and historian's narrative of the various stories put forth.

[Bao]

Other martial arts historians have said differently? Do you have a more specific source?

Yes.

This is news to me! Definitely need more information on this.

If you search around other forums you will see others who have said the same and agree with me.

[origami_itto]

Other martial arts historians have said differently? Do you have a more specific source?

Yes.

This is news to me! Definitely need more information on this.

If you search around other forums you will see others who have said the same and agree with me.

It usually falls upon the person making the claim to provide the evidence backing it up. I have searched the internet far and wide and high and low and haven't seen a credible historian making this claim.

Maybe you could provide these sources?

[Bao]

It usually falls upon the person making the claim to provide the evidence backing it up. I have searched the internet far and wide and high and low and haven't seen a credible historian making this claim.

Maybe you could provide these sources?

Why should I start by providing sources? If you want to discuss sources, why don't you start first by providing liable sources? How do I know you don't make shit up?

Frankly said, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. Maybe I'll look for something later. Right now no more time to waste.

[origami_itto]

It usually falls upon the person making the claim to provide the evidence backing it up. I have searched the internet far and wide and high and low and haven't seen a credible historian making this claim.

Maybe you could provide these sources?

Why should I start by providing sources? If you want to discuss sources, why don't you start first by providing liable sources? How do I know you don't make shit up?

Frankly said, I couldn't care less if you believe me or not. Maybe I'll look for something later. Right now no more time to waste.

I mean... I'm not a PhD candidate or anything, but I'm pretty sure the work published under his name qualifies as a primary source.

From Yang Ch'eng-fu's
Complete Principles
and Applications
of T'ai-chi ch'iian
Yang Ch'eng-fu,
T'ai-chi ch 'iian t 'i-yung ch 'uan-shu
(Complete principles and
applications of T'ai-chi chiian),
Taipei : Chung-hua wu-shu
ch'u-pan-she, 1975
(first edition, 1934) .

as recorded in translation in Tai Chi Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions

and also translated in The Essence and Applications of Taijiquan

[origami_itto]

But it doesn't stop there!

We just established that he wasn't interested in Tai Chi Chuan till later, but what's the family website say...

https://yangfamilytaichi.com/yang-cheng-fu/

Yang Zhao Qing, called Cheng Fu, or just “3rd Son”, was born in 1883 and died in 1936. He started receiving his father’s teachings at an early age.

During his youth he worked hard at making a careful study of Tai Chi, practicing hard through both summer and winter with his skill increasing daily.

[Trick]

YJ probably compare to amount of training todays hobbyists like for example you put in to it, then YCF probably did horse loads of training

[Steve James]

Personally, I don't find much value in comparing static postures or shapes. For me, the important thing is the transition; the in-between is where the action is. Just because anyone on this board could imitate the shape of a ward off doesn't mean they're all doing Yang style as intended by YCF or not. If that were true, all anyone would have to do is follow the pictures.

Ironically, this started as a debate about Yang Jun, and a complaint that his tcc was all surface (and superficial). Anyway, he does not do the form the same way that the Dong's do. Fu's line, otoh, contains practices that other styles don't. They even have their own form, in addition to YCF's. The Yang family in the UK have their own practices.

This is also true for Wu style. It's not a flaw or something to be criticized. If you learn WCC style in Germany, it'll probably be from Ma Yueliang's son, but if you learn in Canada it'll be from Eddie Wu or his students. They're not the same, but both are legit. It's not worth it to question which one is the real or orthodox Wu style, or whether either preserves what WCC did. (Though, I'll admit that I'm in love with Wu Yinghua's performance, and it has been the standard 'book' form since there's been a book.

Afa pictures, how many different looking Single Whips or Brush Knees are there? Imo, looking at/for the differences can lead to interesting discoveries,

[Steve James]

Hmm, it seems that either YCF was a complete phony or he was really good. The entire family agreed that his choreography of the form became the standard. People can say it's because it took out the jumps and kicks, but only a few styles have forms that keep them anyway. And, it doesn't make his form easy to do.

If he faked it, he was able to have the highest salary of any instructor at the Nanking Academy. It would also mean that he fooled WCC, Sun Lutang, Li Jinglin, et al. To me, that's unlikely.

So, imo, whether he started young or only studied a few years, he had to be very very good. It's arguable that his size had something to do with it, but I'd argue that would make it even more important for him to be skillful. Plus, there must have been some formidable Yang family members still around. Why choose YCF to represent at all?

It's possible to make YCF's style difficult, and just as possible to make the others easier and more accessible.

[origami_itto]

YJ probably compare to amount of training todays hobbyists like for example you put in to it, then YCF probably did horse loads of training

See, y'all always want to take and make things personally with your nasty little snipy remarks.

[everything]

Fedor and Jon Jones don't move the same way at all, either.

One guy looks "big" and moves that way. The other guy looks "lanky" and kind of moves that way. (obviously they are both big).

Same with LeBron and Jokic.

These are all "masters" of MMA and Basketball. This tai chi thing is just bonkers. And supposed to be "internal".

[windwalker]

@ trip.

interesting post

Yang Chengfu taught his disciples the pathways
his family uses to issue power (qi) from the foot, to leg, thru the body
into the arm, and out the palm.

What does this mean to you.
Do you feel you can do what is written

Do you feel it's something that is distinguishable from someone not using this method..
ie what does using this method allow that is not possible with out using it ?

asking out of curiosity...

Many Chinese(taiji) martial arts use correct body alignment, a boxer who strikes the bag find the good alignment too.
Taijiquan is special, the specific angles of foot/leg placement in relation to torso/upper-body opens up a direct six directional connection and with it a “unique” from ground trough the body path and stability.
Same is true in Xingyiquan too, for example in mid step pi-quan.
Also stepping in many Japanese martial arts make use of this.

thanks

Yes many arts do use body alignment's...
Trip's post mentioned energy path ways and qi

Just as "steve" mentioned alignment's, transitions and intention.

It’s all in the Form

The concept of understanding the difference between training and practice also helps to understand a rather cryptic saying in Taijiquan. It goes something like this:

‘It’s all in the Form; but only if it is, ALL in the Form.’

What is means to me is that the Tai Chi Form is complete, but in the foundation stage, everything is not yet ‘in’ the Form. A student hasn’t yet trained and established the necessary qualities needed for the Form to be complete. So, we can say that the Form is complete and everything, in theory, is contained there.
However, the most efficient way to make the Form complete is to train the qualities outside of the Form and then cultivate them further in practicing the Form.

It should be mentioned that as the practice deepens the outer form will change...which might mean it's harder to get, the outer movement becoming more simpler...


from a teacher depending on their point of development at the time they started teaching... Might answer why many of the advanced students had already yrs of training something else before starting with a teacher they encountered....finding something they've been looking for feeling it was missing, not developed through their present practice....

[Steve James]

Hey John W, what do you think of this Yang form. (How do I know it's the "real" Yang Panhou 'paochui' form, I don't. This is just an example with that name. However, imo, some things/techniques can be noted that could remind people of other martial arts).