Yang family

[Trick]

Fedor and Jon Jones don't move the same way at all, either.

".

Yes, but they may do some same training methods. The taiji taolu is a method of training

[wayne hansen]

Nice
This is the other form I learned

https://youtu.be/yGMSZ9NJ9GU?si=FN0-3-DZPN2vy0eW

[Trip]

Chip has been studying Taijiquan with the Dong school since 1974.
A student of Tung Hu Ling,
In 1990 he became the first American disciple of Tung’s son, Dong Zeng Chen.

Subject: Fa Jing in Taijiquan
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998

The traditional Yang style slow set as taught by Yang Chen Fu is done in a smooth manner.
The opening, or expanding phase of the movements, is done smoothly.
While there is plenty of strong energy there, it is not of an explosive character, which is one of the characteristics of fa jing.

So, while you can develop the base from which you can fa jing in the slow set, you don't see it in the performance of the slow set.

Tung Ying Chien and Yang Chen Fu collaborated on a "fast set"
which was unfinished at the time of Yang's death. Later Tung finished it.

It is now taught by his grandsons Tung Kai Ying and Dong Zeng Chen.
Dong calls the set "Hua jin quan" (sorry about the spelling!)
which means "changing energy fist".

This was taught by Tung Hu Ling
(Dong's father) as the "#2" set.

This fast set looks a lot like the Yang style slow set done quickly.
But there are some significant differences.

For example some of the movements are done in a slow and very soft manner,
followed by an explosive movement which is the expression of the fa jing.

Tung Ying Chieh later took this development further as he created the Tung (Dong) family fast set.
This set also is characterized by loose movements coupled with explosive movements.

Both of these latter two Taiji sets are useful in the development of fa jing.

Aloha,
Chip Ellis

[Trip]

Tung Hu Ling


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o55M4B00Ajc


Kai Ying


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57mNQNEZwwg

Master Kai Ying Tung
Academy of T'ai Chi Ch'uan
Tai Chi Forms


Fast T'ai Chi Ch'uan

Yu Pei Shih - Preporatory Position
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Pai Ho Liang Ch'ih - White Crane Spreads Its Wings
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Shou Hui P’i P’a - Playing The Guitar
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Yu Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Right Knee and Push
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Shou Hui P’i P’a - Playing The Guitar
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down
Ju Feng Szu Pi - Retreat and Seal
Pao Hu Kuei Shan - Carry Tiger And Return To The Mountain
Chou Ti K’an Ch’ui - Fist Under The Elbow
Tao Nien Hou - Step Back And Repulse The Monkey
Hsieh Fei Shih - Slant Flying
Pai Ho Liang Ch’ih - White Crane Spreads Its Wings
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Hai Ti Chen - Needle At The Bottom Of The Sea
Shan T’ung Pi - Raise Arms and Push
P’ieh Shen Ch’ui - Fist Near The Waist
Shang Pu Pan Lan Ch’ui - Step Forward And Punch
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yun Shou - Cloud Hands
Tan Pien - Single Whip -
Kao T’an Ma - High Pat On Horse
Yu Fen Chio - Kick To The Right
Tso Fen Chio - Kick To The Left
Chuan Shen Teng Chio - Turn Back And Kick
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Yu Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Right Knee and Push
Chin Pu Tsai Ch’ui - Step Forward and Punch Down
Zhuan Shen Shang Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Turn Around, Step Up, Deflect Downward, Parry and Punch
Hsieh Shen Yu Teng Chio - Right Heel Kick
Ta Hu Shih - Strike The Tiger
Tso Teng Chio - Left Heel Kick
Chuan Shen Yu Teng Chio - Turn Around And Kick
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down
Ju Feng Szu Pi - Retreat and Seal
Pao Hu Kuei Shan - Carry Tiger And Return To The Mountain
Hsieh Tan Pien - Diagonal Single Whip
Yeh Ma Fen Tsung - Wild Horse Separates Its Mane
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yü Nü Ch’uan So - Fair Lady At The Shuttle
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yun Shou - Cloud Hands
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Tan Pien Hsia Shih - Single Whip Lower Posture
Chin Chi Tu Li - Golden Cock Stands On One Leg
Tao Nien Hou - Step Back And Repulse The Monkey
Hsieh Fei Shih - Slant Flying
Pai Ho Liang Ch’ih - White Crane Spreads Its Wings
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee And Push
Hai Ti Chen - Needle At The Bottom Of The Sea
Shan T’ung Pi - Raise Arms and Push
P’ieh Shen Ch’ui - Fist Near The Waist
Shang Pu Pan Lan Ch’ui - Step Forward And Punch
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yun Shou - Cloud Hands
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Kao T’an Ma - High Pat On Horse
Tai Ch’uan Chang - Thrust Out Palm
Chuan Shen Shih Zi Pai Lian - Turn And Make The Single Lotus Kick
Chin Pu Chih Tang Ch’ui - Step Forward And Punch Groin
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Tan Pien Hsia Shih - Single Whip Lower Posture
Shang Pu Ch’i Hsing Ch’ui - Step Forward And Seven Stars Punch
T’ui Pu K’ua Hu - Step Back And Ride Tiger
Chuan Shen Shuang Pai Lian - Turn Around And Double Lotus Kick
Wan Kung She Hu - Pull Bow And Shoot Tiger
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down
Ju Feng Szu Pi - Retreat and Seal
Shih Tzu Shou - Cross Hands
Ho Tai Chi - T'ai Chi Ch’uan, Ending Movement

2nd Set

Tung's Fast T'ai Chi Ch'uan

Yu Pei Shih - Preparatory Position
T'ai Chi Ch'i Shih - T'ai Chi Chuan Starting Movement
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp And Tuck In The Gown (Fast)
Tan Pien - Single Whip (Fast/Slow with Style Alteration)
Ho Chin - Closing Energy (Slow)
Hsien Ho Chang Ch'ih - Divine Crane Spreads Its Wings (Slow)
T'o P'ip'a - Holding The Pipa (Slow)
Ch'uan P'ip'a - Turning The Pipa (Slow)
Lieh Chang - Splitting Palm (Fast)
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down (Fast)
Lien Huan Yüan Feng Pi - Circle And Seal Continuously (Fast)
Pao Hu Hui Shan Tung - Leopard And Tiger Return To The Caves (Fast)
Ts'o Chang Po Chi Shi - Winnowing Movement (Fast))
Chih T'ui Shan Chan - Dodging Forward And Backward (Slow)
Ta P'eng T'eng K'ung - Big Roc Elevates In The Air (Slow)
Chuang Lei Ch'ui - Punch Ribs With Hammer (Fast)
Pai Yüan Shan Shen - White Ape Dodges Away (Fast)
Feng Huang Hsieh Chan Ch'ih - Phoenix Spreads Its Wings Slantingly (Fast)
Pan Lan Ch'ui - Grab And Punch (Fast)
Fan Shen Pan An Ch'ui - Turn Back And Press With Fist (Fast)
Chin Pu Lan Ts'o I - Step Forward, Grab And Repress The Gown (Fast)
Lien Huan Shih - Continual Movement (Slow)
Tiao Shou - Circling Up (Slow/Fast)
Ts'o Shan Yu Pi - Dodge To The Left, Evade To The Right (Slow/Fast Sweeps)
T'an Ma Shih - Pat On Horse (Fast)
Ying Hsiung Tu Li - Hero Stands On One Leg (Fast)
T'eng Shen Fa - Jump Backward (Fast)
Liao Chang - Raising Hand (Fast)
Feng Huan Ch'ao - Phoenix Returns To Nest (Fast)
Tai Chi Huan Yüan - Tai Chi Chuan Ending Movement

[windwalker]

Interesting brings back memories

Not a fan of the tung fast sets...never really understood the need for them....

Tung Kai Ying's flavor reflects the way we practiced it...
a little tighter movement...



Chip Ellis,,

always good to see the work of others....

[Trip]

Fast Form 1st Set

Starts in middle
But you get the gist

中国邢台国际董氏太极拳联谊会 老外太极快拳


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHwWKRU-fq8

[Trip]

Tung Ying Chieh
Taiji Fast Form



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFCaSWIPsZc

[Trick]

There is a subset of Yang Style that seems to have redefined Fa Jin to mean something else.

As seen in videos posted on this forum related to Fa Jin in Taijiquan, Baguazhang, and Xingyiquan, they're all approximately some form of accelerated power.

Whereas in today's Yang Style, a lot of what I see titled "Fa Jin" is gently and softly pushing a partner's hands/forearms; said partner then deliberately staggers back. A lot of Yang Style seems to be characterized by constant speed - not acceleration. Even their punch and kicks are done slowly and at a constant speed. So in a lot of "Fast Form", it's not really Fa Jin since the only thing that changed is that the constant speed is higher. Of course, not all of them are like that, and some of them do accelerate. But they generally use momentum - not force.

Personally, I think a characteristic of Fa Jin that distinguishes itself from something like Boxing is the deceleration. A boxer would accelerate their punch, but they don't care too much about deceleration. So if a punch misses, there's a tendency for it to continue flying.

But in Chinese martial arts, Fa Jin generally seems to have the characteristic of a sudden, crisp stop. So it's generally acceleration followed by a high deceleration that stops it at a predefined position.

But in a lot of Yang Style, it's very rare to see them accelerate. They're mostly all about constant speed. Even the sequences in their form that are explicitly about punching and kicking are still done at a constant speed.

Heres a good explanation by the “karate nerd”….. yes I know, “Japanese” Kime is scoffed at by the Chinese fajin, nut that’s just a “my daddy is stronger than yours” sandbox thing that isn’t relevant.the two are the same.
https://www.karatebyjesse.com/kime-putt ... he-coffin/

As read in the article it put forward the importance of postures…correct postures

[Trick]

Lots of Dong/Tung references here.
That Tung Ying Chien collaborated with YCF to create a fast form, is that just words from the Dong family ? Any other source claiming this ?

I personally don’t like the Dong family’s forward hunched postures while performing Yang-TJQ, it looks too much as that pic of an old man JW posted….I think a cane would be in place while doing it the way the Dongs doing.
From this I don’t think Tung Ying Chien did any collaboration with YCF on developing practice methods

[wayne hansen]

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLjEp ... C5UDUK0vOu

[Trip]

I personally don’t like the Dong family’s forward hunched postures while performing Yang-TJQ

We like what we like.
You don't want to lean;
then just don't do it

Bow Stance of Traditional Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan

The body shape for movements with Bow Stance Footwork
generally require the upper body to incline slightly in the forward direction,
so it leans about at the same angle as the back leg.
https://yangfamilytaichi.com/

Yang Zhenguo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVwZT-C15Jo&t=61

Usually, The lean depends on how big your stance is
Smaller stance; usually less lean

Traditional Yang Family teaches
all postures lean slightly, more or less

They teach that
Three postures do not lean.

One of the postures usually taught without a lean
is Wardoff Left.

[Trip]

Lots of Dong/Tung references here.

Lot's of Yang Style here

[wayne hansen]

I don’t lean except when I do Wu just another way of approaching the art
Tung does fine with a little lean
https://youtu.be/AGfE6C18ePw?si=MaJTf8Jhwrn9Saep

[Trip]

The Traditional Yang Family Taiji Lean
has to do with the application energy of the posture

The 3 postures that don't lean in Yang Family Taiji
is because the application energy is split
(Applied in two opposite directions at the same time)

[D_Glenn]

There is a subset of Yang Style that seems to have redefined Fa Jin to mean something else.

As seen in videos posted on this forum related to Fa Jin in Taijiquan, Baguazhang, and Xingyiquan, they're all approximately some form of accelerated power.

Whereas in today's Yang Style, a lot of what I see titled "Fa Jin" is gently and softly pushing a partner's hands/forearms; said partner then deliberately staggers back. A lot of Yang Style seems to be characterized by constant speed - not acceleration. Even their punch and kicks are done slowly and at a constant speed. So in a lot of "Fast Form", it's not really Fa Jin since the only thing that changed is that the constant speed is higher. Of course, not all of them are like that, and some of them do accelerate. But they generally use momentum - not force.

Personally, I think a characteristic of Fa Jin that distinguishes itself from something like Boxing is the deceleration. A boxer would accelerate their punch, but they don't care too much about deceleration. So if a punch misses, there's a tendency for it to continue flying.

But in Chinese martial arts, Fa Jin generally seems to have the characteristic of a sudden, crisp stop. So it's generally acceleration followed by a high deceleration that stops it at a predefined position.

But in a lot of Yang Style, it's very rare to see them accelerate. They're mostly all about constant speed. Even the sequences in their form that are explicitly about punching and kicking are still done at a constant speed.

The Baguazhang and Xingyi people had already just switched to saying Fa Li instead of Fajin in the 1980s and now most of the old Chen guys have also switched. So I also try to use Fali instead of Fajin, to avoid confusion.

In a normal fast punch, in every style of martial art or boxing, the bones of the hand and arm are moving but all the loose flesh of the arm, shoulder and back muscles are lagging behind but eventually are dragged along and follow the movement of the bones. In high speed camera footage we can now see that our loose flesh moves like waves of water move in a pond of water. So when the bones of the hand and arm want to stop, the wave of flesh continues its movement along that trajectory and the weight and momentum of the flesh continues to move the whole arm past that point and can then start to drag the bones.

In a fast punch using Fa Li, the practitioner first uses a quick movement of the lumbar and sacrum to jolt their own abdomen to create a wave of flesh moving upward, and then the bones of the hand and arm strike outward, following and moving along with that wave of flesh, so that both flesh, muscle and bone are moving at the same time in a single harmonious movement. And if the strike stops, it all stops at the same time. There’s nothing lagging behind to continue the forward momentum. And more importantly for the daily training aspect of a martial art, there’s not that lagging behind of the flesh that can cause that slight pain when the weight and momentum wants to pull you forearm bones away from your elbow joint. With a Fa Li you can punch full speed and with full power, into the air, without feeling that dislocation of the elbow joint. Or have that slight off balancing effect from of your own momentum not stopping at the same time. Everything after the movement of your lumbar and abdomen (Dantian) starts moving at the same time, and can stop moving at the same time. Which if you factor your Yi (intention) into this harmony, it also has profound effects over the lifetime of your practice because your Yi is not scattered by having the Intention to stop, but not actually stopping.


.