Yang family

[Trick]

I personally don’t like the Dong family’s forward hunched postures while performing Yang-TJQ

We like what we like.
You don't want to lean;
then just don't do it

Bow Stance of Traditional Yang Family Tai Chi Chuan

The body shape for movements with Bow Stance Footwork
generally require the upper body to incline slightly in the forward direction,
so it leans about at the same angle as the back leg.
https://yangfamilytaichi.com/

Yang Zhenguo



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVwZT-C15Jo&t=61

Usually, The lean depends on how big your stance is
Smaller stance; usually less lean

Traditional Yang Family teaches
all postures lean slightly, more or less

They teach that
Three postures do not lean.

One of the postures usually taught without a lean
is Wardoff Left.

Mmm, yes.
The for some decades now representative of the Tung/Dong style of TJQ in Sweden, sure he as I remember don’t extremely hunch forward as the Dongs, but he has(or at least had. I haven’t been to Sweden for a long time)this weird constant flickering with his fingers while doing the form, his students picked up that too.
His long time students also didn’t seem to understand that the sword has cutting edges and sharp point.
And the school seem quite commercial.

What am I saying by this ? Well, whatever people criticize YCF or even ZMQ, the Dongs seem not have done any better, maybe even worse?

[Trick]

Lots of Dong/Tung references here.

Lot's of Yang Style here

But it seem the Dong family more inclines to hunch toward their own as a family style taiji

[Trick]

The Traditional Yang Family Taiji Lean
has to do with the application energy of the posture

The 3 postures that don't lean in Yang Family Taiji
is because the application energy is split
(Applied in two opposite directions at the same time)

Yes it seem that the six directional harmony is lacking, which makes it not possible to achieve the spherical force, being centered without leakage to the sides.

[wayne hansen]

Still strong in CMC line

[Trip]

The for some decades now representative of the Tung/Dong style of TJQ in Sweden, sure he as I remember don’t extremely hunch forward as the Dongs, but he has(or at least had. I haven’t been to Sweden for a long time)this weird constant flickering with his fingers while doing the form, his students picked up that too.
His long time students also didn’t seem to understand that the sword has cutting edges and sharp point.
And the school seem quite commercial.

What am I saying by this ? Well, whatever people criticize YCF or even ZMQ, the Dongs seem not have done any better, maybe even worse?

Yes it seem that the six directional harmony is lacking, which makes it not possible to achieve the spherical force, being centered without leakage to the sides.

I have no idea who this guy from your past is

But, If I understand you correctly...

You do like anything he teaches
And, the Dongs are ...
Even worse than YCF or ZMQ!

Message Received
Thanks for sharing

[origami_itto]

They talk about 8 directions, not six.

There's no "hunch" the "lean" you need to learn how to do correctly, so you'll see the beginners doing more of the ramrod up and down CMC "Hank Hill" thing.

Honestly, YCF and CMC did more to fuck up people's understanding of authentic Taijiquan than to help. Pretty much every bit of information to come out of them needs further clarification to be accurate. Take the whole double weighting thing...

I'm surprised the crusaders for TRUTH aren't more curious about the lies they published, though. Just a little hand waving "oh he didn't really say that"

[origami_itto]

There has been a rebranding of a lot of Tung family stuff
New forms invented and new names given to old forms
I learnt the two fast over 30 years ago
There was no mention of Fa Jing form until recently

Well I suppose you probably didn't learn the Dong Ying Jie form then, because it does not follow the Yang sequence.

Edit: They do refer to them loosely as the fast forms, I Guess we get specific to tell them apart.

[origami_itto]

YJ probably compare to amount of training todays hobbyists like for example you put in to it, then YCF probably did horse loads of training

See, y'all always want to take and make things personally with your nasty little snipy remarks.

Ha ! I wasn’t pointing to “you” specifically but to “you” whoever the reader, because most of us are Taiji hobbyists, even those here that consider themselves Taiji special .
Non of “you” can reach YCF’s skillful standards, you haven’t even done Taiji under the table……As much as you always want to take it there, don’t take it personally:)

Alright I will endeavor to be less sensitive. Just saying there's a lot of passive aggressive little susies in the Taiji world and I prefer to be direct because I tend to misunderstand things.

SO on the topic of Dong Family Fast Forms.

THIS is the Yang Style Fast or "Fajin Form"

Master Kai Ying Tung
Academy of T'ai Chi Ch'uan
Tai Chi Forms


Fast T'ai Chi Ch'uan

Yu Pei Shih - Preporatory Position
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Pai Ho Liang Ch'ih - White Crane Spreads Its Wings
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Shou Hui P’i P’a - Playing The Guitar
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Yu Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Right Knee and Push
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Shou Hui P’i P’a - Playing The Guitar
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down
Ju Feng Szu Pi - Retreat and Seal
Pao Hu Kuei Shan - Carry Tiger And Return To The Mountain
Chou Ti K’an Ch’ui - Fist Under The Elbow
Tao Nien Hou - Step Back And Repulse The Monkey
Hsieh Fei Shih - Slant Flying
Pai Ho Liang Ch’ih - White Crane Spreads Its Wings
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Hai Ti Chen - Needle At The Bottom Of The Sea
Shan T’ung Pi - Raise Arms and Push
P’ieh Shen Ch’ui - Fist Near The Waist
Shang Pu Pan Lan Ch’ui - Step Forward And Punch
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yun Shou - Cloud Hands
Tan Pien - Single Whip -
Kao T’an Ma - High Pat On Horse
Yu Fen Chio - Kick To The Right
Tso Fen Chio - Kick To The Left
Chuan Shen Teng Chio - Turn Back And Kick
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee and Push
Yu Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Right Knee and Push
Chin Pu Tsai Ch’ui - Step Forward and Punch Down
Zhuan Shen Shang Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Turn Around, Step Up, Deflect Downward, Parry and Punch
Hsieh Shen Yu Teng Chio - Right Heel Kick
Ta Hu Shih - Strike The Tiger
Tso Teng Chio - Left Heel Kick
Chuan Shen Yu Teng Chio - Turn Around And Kick
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down
Ju Feng Szu Pi - Retreat and Seal
Pao Hu Kuei Shan - Carry Tiger And Return To The Mountain
Hsieh Tan Pien - Diagonal Single Whip
Yeh Ma Fen Tsung - Wild Horse Separates Its Mane
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yü Nü Ch’uan So - Fair Lady At The Shuttle
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yun Shou - Cloud Hands
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Tan Pien Hsia Shih - Single Whip Lower Posture
Chin Chi Tu Li - Golden Cock Stands On One Leg
Tao Nien Hou - Step Back And Repulse The Monkey
Hsieh Fei Shih - Slant Flying
Pai Ho Liang Ch’ih - White Crane Spreads Its Wings
Tso Lou Hsi Niu Pu - Brush Left Knee And Push
Hai Ti Chen - Needle At The Bottom Of The Sea
Shan T’ung Pi - Raise Arms and Push
P’ieh Shen Ch’ui - Fist Near The Waist
Shang Pu Pan Lan Ch’ui - Step Forward And Punch
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Yun Shou - Cloud Hands
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Kao T’an Ma - High Pat On Horse
Tai Ch’uan Chang - Thrust Out Palm
Chuan Shen Shih Zi Pai Lian - Turn And Make The Single Lotus Kick
Chin Pu Chih Tang Ch’ui - Step Forward And Punch Groin
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp and Tuck In The Gown
Tan Pien - Single Whip
Tan Pien Hsia Shih - Single Whip Lower Posture
Shang Pu Ch’i Hsing Ch’ui - Step Forward And Seven Stars Punch
T’ui Pu K’ua Hu - Step Back And Ride Tiger
Chuan Shen Shuang Pai Lian - Turn Around And Double Lotus Kick
Wan Kung She Hu - Pull Bow And Shoot Tiger
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down
Ju Feng Szu Pi - Retreat and Seal
Shih Tzu Shou - Cross Hands
Ho Tai Chi - T'ai Chi Ch’uan, Ending Movement

THIS is the Dong Ying Jie "Family Form"

Tung's Fast T'ai Chi Ch'uan

Yu Pei Shih - Preparatory Position
T'ai Chi Ch'i Shih - T'ai Chi Chuan Starting Movement
Lan Ch'ieh I - Grasp And Tuck In The Gown (Fast)
Tan Pien - Single Whip (Fast/Slow with Style Alteration)
Ho Chin - Closing Energy (Slow)
Hsien Ho Chang Ch'ih - Divine Crane Spreads Its Wings (Slow)
T'o P'ip'a - Holding The Pipa (Slow)
Ch'uan P'ip'a - Turning The Pipa (Slow)
Lieh Chang - Splitting Palm (Fast)
T'iao Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui - Jumping And Punch Down (Fast)
Lien Huan Yüan Feng Pi - Circle And Seal Continuously (Fast)
Pao Hu Hui Shan Tung - Leopard And Tiger Return To The Caves (Fast)
Ts'o Chang Po Chi Shi - Winnowing Movement (Fast))
Chih T'ui Shan Chan - Dodging Forward And Backward (Slow)
Ta P'eng T'eng K'ung - Big Roc Elevates In The Air (Slow)
Chuang Lei Ch'ui - Punch Ribs With Hammer (Fast)
Pai Yüan Shan Shen - White Ape Dodges Away (Fast)
Feng Huang Hsieh Chan Ch'ih - Phoenix Spreads Its Wings Slantingly (Fast)
Pan Lan Ch'ui - Grab And Punch (Fast)
Fan Shen Pan An Ch'ui - Turn Back And Press With Fist (Fast)
Chin Pu Lan Ts'o I - Step Forward, Grab And Repress The Gown (Fast)
Lien Huan Shih - Continual Movement (Slow)
Tiao Shou - Circling Up (Slow/Fast)
Ts'o Shan Yu Pi - Dodge To The Left, Evade To The Right (Slow/Fast Sweeps)
T'an Ma Shih - Pat On Horse (Fast)
Ying Hsiung Tu Li - Hero Stands On One Leg (Fast)
T'eng Shen Fa - Jump Backward (Fast)
Liao Chang - Raising Hand (Fast)
Feng Huan Ch'ao - Phoenix Returns To Nest (Fast)
Tai Chi Huan Yüan - Tai Chi Chuan Ending Movement

What I don't have video of yet is Alex's "3rd form" or "Secret Form", it's his Simplified form plus Advanced form done like the Yang Fast/Fajin form. The "Secret" is sort of tongue in cheek. Not many people have learned it yet, most of the students who would be ready already know the Yang Long form so they go the older route.

[D_Glenn]

My question is how come nowadays you have all these thousands of people around the world who practice Taiji for an hour a day, for a handful of years, self proclaiming themselves as master Taiji fighters. Then you have the handful of Taiji masters of old, who practiced Taiji for 8 hours a day, for 10-30 years, but somehow they’re not considered competent Taiji fighters?

It doesn’t add up.

.

[BruceP]

My question is how come nowadays you have all these thousands of people around the world who practice Taiji for an hour a day, for a handful of years, self proclaiming themselves as master Taiji fighters. Then you have the handful of Taiji masters of old, who practiced Taiji for 8 hours a day, for 10-30 years, but somehow they’re not considered competent Taiji fighters?

It doesn’t add up.

.

Could you name a few of those thousands of hour-a-day guys?

How are the masters of old being 'measured' that they're not considered competent?

You raise some good questions, but getting to the answers and reasoning that would point to the answers requires the unraveling of a pretty big ball of hair.

[origami_itto]

I don't know anybody like that, except an Australian or two

[windwalker]

My question is how come nowadays you have all these thousands of people around the world who practice Taiji for an hour a day, for a handful of years, self proclaiming themselves as master Taiji fighters. Then you have the handful of Taiji masters of old, who practiced Taiji for 8 hours a day, for 10-30 years, but somehow they’re not considered competent Taiji fighters?

It doesn’t add up.

.

Should it ?

"Thousands of people proclaiming themselves as mater taiji fighters " really ?


As a younger man, took on on all comers who doubted the effectiveness of CMA using Tibetan white crane, the messenger...
educating them, testing myself....

now only play taiji for the last 20yrs or so....have tested similarly, using the common format in Taiwan and China...
Coming to my own conclusion understanding it doesn't matter, once an understanding of ones practice is achieved..
ie nothing to prove anymore,,,you know it...

Lots of testing going on informally documented on other sites Wechat,,,in Chinese....echoing some of the sentiments expressed here...
The difference is they there, can meet and have met with some of the older masters...younger ones claiming to be masters.

The old master I've met including my teacher still took on challenges, as with many things within the Chinese culture it's not done for outsiders...
They and the ones asking the questions know the outcome, just as anyone seriously looking for traditional skill sets,
finding those who actually have them understand after meeting them..

[windwalker]

I don't know anybody like that, except an Australian or two

hahahah,,,,morning coffee spilled...

[D_Glenn]

I don’t name names, but you only have to look at all the forums, youtube and social media groups to find them.

How much time spent training any of the thousands of form variations and push hands, from any lineage, is required to be competent in Taiji?

[D_Glenn]

Regarding how forms look different. In Yin style Bagua we follow Qi Jiguang’s theory that in an actual confrontation you only access 70% of your capabilities. So in our daily practice we do Zhuang at our widest stance, plus about 6 inches, it’s slightly uncomfortable. Then we practice our striking drills, slow forms, and FaLi forms at 100% wide stance. Then we practice our fast combat forms at about 80% to match the feel of how it will actually function in usage.

Is it possible that these old Taiji masters were also following Qi Jiguang’s theory, and the difference in forms is just a different glimpses of their training regimens?

.