Chen Taiji, why the hate?

[johnwang]

Why does Shaui Jian not have qinna or striking or submission holds?

It's individual's responsibility to complete his toolbox. One should not be restricted by the MA system that he is training.

[origami_itto]

Why does Shaui Jian not have qinna or striking or submission holds?

It's individual's responsibility to complete his toolbox.

But that's not the question you're asking. You're asking "Why does Tai Chi Push hands not have _____"

Shaui Jiao competition doesn't have striking or qinna or submission holds or any sort of weapons considerations. An individual has to tack those on to their individual practice if they want to study them, right?

[johnwang]

But that's not the question you're asking. You're asking "Why does Tai Chi Push hands not have _____"

Shaui Jiao competition doesn't have striking or qinna or submission holds or any sort of weapons considerations. An individual has to tack those on to their individual practice if they want to study them, right?

If you are a Taiji teacher, who is going to prevent you from integrating "leg skill" into your Taiji PH training? If you don't do that integration task, who is going to do that task for you?

[origami_itto]

But that's not the question you're asking. You're asking "Why does Tai Chi Push hands not have _____"

Shaui Jiao competition doesn't have striking or qinna or submission holds or any sort of weapons considerations. An individual has to tack those on to their individual practice if they want to study them, right?

If you are a Taiji teacher, who is going to prevent you from integrating "leg skill" into your Taiji PH training?

The intention of the training. "Leg skill" is not the goal of Push Hands training. Gaining control of the body from one point of contact is the goal. It's hard, you start throwing in more variables then you're just going to miss it. Just like if you start throwing weapons into your shaui jiao throw training, at a certain point it just makes more sense to deal with the weapon and stop worrying about the shaui jiao.

What is it you're trying to train? Be clear and don't round the edges.

[everything]

the first UFC was 31 years ago. maybe "art x" should decide to "add" brazilian jiu jitsu about now

[wayne hansen]

But that's not the question you're asking. You're asking "Why does Tai Chi Push hands not have _____"

Shaui Jiao competition doesn't have striking or qinna or submission holds or any sort of weapons considerations. An individual has to tack those on to their individual practice if they want to study them, right?

If you are a Taiji teacher, who is going to prevent you from integrating "leg skill" into your Taiji PH training? If you don't do that integration task, who is going to do that task for you?

Leg skills were a part of all the tai chi I learnt
The first step in the Wu form with the left foot moving out and turning in at 45
It’s a shin bight as you call it
One of the main ones used is what is called in FMA a cow kick where you step on the opponents foot

[Steve James]

Imo, using the legs is a matter of distance. Fixed step phs won't offer the opportunity. In moving step, usually the idea is to complete the pattern. When the legs clash, the opportunity to apply a leg technique exists.

It's like thinking of applying BKTS at three different ranges.

[Trick]

But that's not the question you're asking. You're asking "Why does Tai Chi Push hands not have _____"

Shaui Jiao competition doesn't have striking or qinna or submission holds or any sort of weapons considerations. An individual has to tack those on to their individual practice if they want to study them, right?

If you are a Taiji teacher, who is going to prevent you from integrating "leg skill" into your Taiji PH training?

The intention of the training. "Leg skill" is not the goal of Push Hands training. Gaining control of the body from one point of contact is the goal. It's hard, you start throwing in more variables then you're just going to miss it. Just like if you start throwing weapons into your shaui jiao throw training, at a certain point it just makes more sense to deal with the weapon and stop worrying about the shaui jiao.

What is it you're trying to train? Be clear and don't round the edges.

To reach skillful level at what you explain is the goal of PH one must be aware of legskill, and how do one gain that awareness?

Weapons while throwing people around, in many Japanese martial arts such is used - Aikido as example, it put a neat understanding of correct positioning

[johnwang]

What is it you're trying to train? Be clear and don't round the edges.

To control my opponent's leg is my goal. I first try to get my opponent's leading leg, if my opponent escapes, I try to get his other leg. After I can control my opponent's leg, I then apply my hand skill (such as a push or a pull).

"After" is the key word.

[johnwang]

But that's not the question you're asking. You're asking "Why does Tai Chi Push hands not have _____"

This has been discussed in the past.

If Taiji PH is the beginner level training that does not include "leg skill" training, then what is the intermediate level Taiji training and advance level Taiji training?

[twocircles13]

You are right, at 0:13, Hong could have swept the opponent’s leg. However, at that point he is teaching and demonstrating a push hands drill, so sweeping the leg would have defeated the purpose of the exercise.

What's the reason that Taiji push hand training does not include "leg skill" training such as foot sweep, scoop, shin bite, ...? If a Taiji person doesn't train such skill in push hand, when will he train it?

From the combat point of view, do you think "leg skill" should be included in the Taiji PH training?

It is less confusing for a student to learn groups of skills separately. The pattern drill at 0:13 in the first video is very basic. Probably all taiji practitioners here know at least one variation of it. It’s designed to give you the feel of taijiquan, but when you get to a certain level, you realize, you cannot correctly complete a full circle without one of you going out.

We learned leg separately before putting them together.

The reason for the second video, where he used a leg attack every third or fourth interaction, was to show that Taiji Push hands can and does teach “leg skill.” However, it is not dependent on it. In a self-defense situation, you don’t always want your attacker on the ground, less in your control.

[twocircles13]

But that's not the question you're asking. You're asking "Why does Tai Chi Push hands not have _____"

This has been discussed in the past.

If Taiji PH is the beginner level training that does not include "leg skill" training, then what is the intermediate level Taiji training and advance level Taiji training?

Beginning PH may not include "leg skills.” Taijiquan prioritizes other control methods, teaching them first, but leg skills are eventually taught in many curricula. In my education, it started being taught when we began doing moving step push hands training.

I did talk about beginning and advanced taijiquan training in a prior post in this thread. But, I termed it as first path and second path. I can break it down into beginner and advanced if that is easier to understand. Other teaching traditions may break this down differently. Please share, if you care to.

Beginner

Foundation training
Form (in Chen, first and second forms)
Push hands (There are beginning, intermediate, and advanced levels of PH too. What these are varies by the teacher.)

We don’t usually use beginning, intermediate and advanced. "Beginning level" is very potent. It is taught by students from our tradition to policemen and military personnel in China for handling criminals and enemies.

Intermediate

Weapon forms
Perfecting strikes and kicks

These are sort of an intermediate level. They are not strictly part of the beginning level, but you are expected to know them before advanced level training. The lines between the levels are not hard and fast. Drills from weapons forms and usage are commonly used to enhance beginning level training. The video of Chen Xiaowang doing multiple fa-jings in a row would technically be taught as part of bone breaking and joint dislocating training, but it is often taught to intermediate students and sometimes as part of the beginner form.

At this point, the teacher must choose how the student will progress. The traditional direction was to teach weaponry and self defense, so members of one branch of the family could participate in the bodyguard business, and others could participate in the local militia to protect the village or prepare to enter the army. In other styles, taijiquan enhanced skills for palace guards, soldiers, and individual self defense.

Advanced (self defense)

Advanced versions of both forms (other styles teach additional frames of the form, either way, there are different emphases)
Bone breaking and joint dislocations
Strikes and kicks targeting locations that cause debilitating injuries.
Taijiquan version of sparring
Multiple opponent strategies
Weapon usage

In modern times, martial sport is an alternative to advanced training. This is the option most chosen for Chen Zhonghua’s students.
Training is dependent on the sport.
Targets and methods are modified based on the sport.

[Bao]

If Taiji PH is the beginner level training that does not include "leg skill" training, then what is the intermediate level Taiji training and advance level Taiji training?

Why this obsession about leg skill? Why must leg skill be important for intermediate or advanced level training?

If leg skill is so important, why isn't it included in Greco-Roman wrestling? Maybe some arts don't use it because there are other types of combat and take-downs that use other types of body mechanics?

[johnwang]

If leg skill is so important, why isn't it included in Greco-Roman wrestling? Maybe some arts don't use it because there are other types of combat and take-downs that use other types of body mechanics?

To control your opponent's leg can disable his mobility.

Push + leg skill = take down

[origami_itto]

What is it you're trying to train? Be clear and don't round the edges.

To control my opponent's leg is my goal. I first try to get my opponent's leading leg, if my opponent escapes, I try to get his other leg. After I can control my opponent's leg, I then apply my hand skill (such as a push or a pull).

"After" is the key word.

And that's the point of that training.

Boxers work speed on a speed bag and power on a heavy bag, do you harass them about kicking the speed bag harder? Do we question the lack of a decent guard while jumping rope?

You focus on the point of the exercise during the exercise. If you try combining too many things at once you get less. Chase two birds, catch none.

The real criticism is that Yang Taijiquan has been defanged in popular practice. People either don't have access to accurate information and quality instruction or they aren't willing to put the work in, or they just fill in the gaps with whatever they have at hand.

Then they get REAL precious about their junk palaces.

There's no external testing or impetus to improve. The teachers have more to lose by risking exposure of their lack of fighting ability than they have to gain by backing up their faith with works.

So what you wind up with are ivory tower echo chambers. Self appointed authorities with no checks on their claims teaching the things they learned decades ago to the same set of students.

Without exposure to the evolution of ideas about conflict the relevance of the system gives way to entropy and decay.

So then they can just make claims "oh yeah we do that, but better, we put our left foot forward. You wouldn't understand why"

"Show me"

"No I couldn't do that, it's too secret."

Anyhow...

I admire your questioning. Sometimes it seems a little obtuse but it serves the point. Show me what you can do with your fancy Tai Chi already and stop running your mouth, right?