IT/IS

[Void]

While I haven't got the equipment/place to try Shooter's exercise, what you've just described getting from it is exactly what I feel when working on 'sinking' in Tai Chi. Cool!

I thought it was for the wide open floating, where the centre becomes dislodged - not sinking.

[Neuro]

Shooter, BHassler,

Interesting conversation, thanks, and keep it up

Do you feel this kind of training has any bearing\similarites:



EDIT: I meant more specifically standing and squatting on the ball, not so much all the other stuff they do which is maybe more groundwork-specific

[BruceP]

Neuro, I'm not sure I could fairly comment on that. The perceptual and mind/intent aspects can't be accounted for by the observer, so it's hard to say.

[Neuro]

Neuro, I'm not sure I could fairly comment on that. The perceptual and mind/intent aspects can't be accounted for by the observer, so it's hard to say.

Yup that makes sense, it's different in a lot of ways...

[BruceP]

I initially had left foot forward and most of my weight on my right. I switched it and ended up with more weight on my right again. I thought about the idea of right side indicating thought, and that seems to fit my personality. I tried it again last night and my weight ended up gravitating towards the front foot regardless of which way I stood, but I felt my whole body leaning to the right. I've had the right-sidebending pattern for a long time, but I've never thought of addressing it from a thought vs. feeling perspective before

Thanks. That insight and the initial core response/engagement is where I'd left the idea since I'd only cooked it up as a technique that anyone can do to glimpse the primer. It does show the natural orientation of one's internal center though. I just think there might be a danger of it becoming a case of 'too far in becomes out'. It might be a dead end if it gets old. That's why I asked you where you'd go with it.

The thing that struck me physically was the feeling of my body being something like a bag of water with a pendulum inside-- sort of a shifting, sloshing sort of feeling. On a mechanical level, the most direct thing would probably be to take that same sort of feeling and try to apply it to form/drills/whatever. There's another element to it that applies strategically to taiji and also might have some interesting ramifications in daily life that is what I think of as a feeling of surrender-- just riding the wave, or maybe more like getting swept up and tossed around inside the wave and knowing that eventually everything floats to the surface and just to wait for it and let it come

Yes. Neutrality in its purest state.

I'm looking for a higher/scarier place to do this. Right now I feel the risk of falling but not as much of the sense of real abandon and letting go I suspect it might take to do it in what's been referred to as a more urgent situation. There's some stuff there I suspect will happen but I'll wait until I try it to comment
B-

Agreed. The scarier the better. I should have also mentioned the importance of keeping one's arms hanging at the sides when I originally outlined the drill.

Thanks for sharing your findings. Much appreciated.

Bruce

[Brady]

Shooter and BHassler,
I think its interesting that the exercise you are talking about is a basic tool in vestibular rehab for people with vertigo and other equilibrium issues. I've never understood why its not more frequently used on athletes to enhance balance. All of the vestibular retraining exercises I've come across seem pretty potent as enhancers of innate body skill. I tried to use some of the tests on a couple Judo buddies and after too much stimulus they both ended up dizzy and nauseous.
I have a question, have either of you tried it with different eye positions and/or movements? I've always noticed that I am more balanced with my eyes down and right of midline, and if I look to the upper left I feel much more postural sway. I'll admit to never trying it on scaffolding, that must be one crazy feeling though.
BHassler, doesn't Feldenkrais have a methodology for approaching vestibular issues?

[BruceP]

Thank a lot, Brady. That's pretty interesting. I found dizziness-and-balance.com and read through some of the articles. Very cool.

I was wondering how to take something like that drill further so thanks twice. I'm a big fan of intuitive learning and natural movement and "potent enhancers of innate body skill" nice
That kind of information's gold.

I haven't played with it much at all myself and hadn't even thought of different eye positions. Another avenue worth checking out.

Thanks for jumping in

Bruce

[Brady]

Glad to help Shooter, both you and Brian have given me training gold for years now so its nice to return the favor. I use a lot of this stuff in my work with people. My semi-scientific approach is to evaluate our three balance systems , first in isolation then in integrative function. They are 1) vestibular, 2) occular 3) proprioceptive/body feel. There are a lot of ways to enhance/dampen any one of these so as to force us into using principally one and then finding issues within it.

Then, and I still haven't worked through all of this, there are reflexes and neurological pathways that link these systems together. For example, the VOR (vestibulooccular reflex) coordinates every head and eye movement together. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibulo-ocular_reflex Another hugely important reflex is the VSR (vestibulospinal) which coordinates spinal and vestibular positioning.

One can get super specific with testing and I've seen some magic done by experienced bodyworkers. I think this http://www.dizziness-and-balance.com/anatomy/vspine.htm on the site you pointed me to is a great page.

After I get a general idea how I want to approach the situation, then the fun begins. Traditionally, rehab is categorized into 3 or 4 distinct strategies.
1) adaptation
2) habituation
3) compensation
4) sensitization
Because its a headache to review these strategies, I'll just link to a book page: http://books.google.com/books?id=q-hCAZCA4kMC&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=adaptation,+compensation,+vertigo&source=bl&ots=i-nrq-rOgy&sig=jsDNoycvJmR8TSVkwkUhLl5sSlA&hl=en&ei=ccT8Sv-fOtO6ngeKmdyPCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=adaptation%2C%20compensation%2C%20vertigo&f=false

Anyways, be interested to hear what you think of this approach. I've noticed pitfalls with it and am sick of disembodied therapists bastardizing the methods, so it'd be good to hear from some folks I respect.

-Brady

[BruceP]

Thanks again, Brady.

I played with the drill some more with different eye positioning which really turned on the lights. I then googled some ideas that popped up upon introspection.

It turns out that the RCPM muscle is considered to be more of a sensory organ than a muscle. cue the lightbulbs! I've been wondering how the 'glimpsing' drill could be expanded on so as to bring one to a point of entry to the actual work of cultivation while retaining the internal response that the drill induces, and what it has to do with what some are calling IT.

I was actually thinking of taking Brian's original challenge beyond a mere glimpse and working up some simple techniques that anyone can use to access the 'IHTBF' without the benefit of having someone who has IT showing them what IT feels like. And then you showed up...which was a good thing.

Not getting too excited yet...

Bruce

[I-mon]

I love the cooperative educational aspect of this forum. Good work.

[yusuf]

I love the cooperative educational aspect of this forum. Good work.

+1,000 . . . this is RSF at its best.

... community...

[Void]

Brady, thank you for that post - I have pretty strong vertigo so I'll have a work through it all and see what I might be able to do.

[Brady]

It turns out that the RCPM muscle is considered to be more of a sensory organ than a muscle. cue the lightbulbs!

Very cool, did not know this. That actually makes a lot of sense.

I was actually thinking of taking Brian's original challenge beyond a mere glimpse and working up some simple techniques that anyone can use to access the 'IHTBF' without the benefit of having someone who has IT showing them what IT feels like. And then you showed up...which was a good thing.

What is IHTBF? I may have missed that abbreviation earlier in this thread. You will have to let us know what ideas you come up with, could yield lots of interesting ideas.

Void, hope this helps. Vertigo, from what I have seen, is a pretty awful experience. And I am getting all warm and fuzzy about the community here haha

[BruceP]

IHTBF = It Has To Be Felt

[Brady]

Ooooh I do not think I ever would have guessed that.