Xinyi - Xingyi: Relationship?

[edededed]

Gents:

What is the historical/developmental relationship between Xinyi and Xingyi (if any)?

I am curious as I practice neither system, but if the latter developed from the former:
- What are the strong points of each?
- Is Xingyi 'watered down' Xinyi
- Or is Xinyi 'stuck-in-the-past' Xingyi?

Both!

If you look at Dai family xinyiquan (sometimes called liuhexinyiquan), older branches of xingyiquan, and newer branches of xingyiquan, you can see a clear progression/evolution. In general, some material is lost (or deliberately pared away) at each step, while a bit of new material is added as well (for example, 17 animal methods became 12 animal methods). Additionally, body mechanics in general seem to become less overt (more subtle) (for example, hubu (gongbu) methods became santi methods). Xingyiquan also was affected by other styles in Beijing, like baguazhang (for example, xingyiquan added baguazhang's 9 palace stepping).

Certain of the wuxingquan (5 elements) also show a clear progression from xinyiliuhequan, Dai family xinyiquan, older lineages of xingyiquan, and newer lineages of xingyiquan as well (such as piquan).

Also interesting are the quanpu - many words/songs are very similar, but seem to have changed slightly (mistakes? many of the differences sound similar but mean something else) through the years.

[Josealb]

One difference that i like to notice also is that xinyiluhe and Dai xinyi, have full focus on developing the trunk of the body (torso, shoulder, head, and hip methods)....while xingyiquan's flavor is more on the tips (elbow, hands, knees, etc). Dai also stresses contraction and expansion to the maximum.

Of course, Xingyi's core mechanics are born in the trunk as well..im just talking about a style preference (med/close range vs zero distance range).

[Palmer]

they have very different shen fa, but some similar fundamentals......xinyi is just way cooler(ha ha) and seems to focus more upon developing the seven stars inhmo....to me xinyi is very similar to the yin style bagua i studied, differences for sure, but they both train and develop in a similar fashion and it is all about the body develpment and unusual angles and tactics.

It is interesting that you say that. I have not studied much Bagua but as I progressed more and more in a XYLH curriculum I saw similarities to Bagua in the XYLH stepping methods and two man drills.

Palmer

[Josealb]

Andy, upon reading your post a bit more ( ) you ask the question about adding/removing moves to create or change an existing style...

Sure, i guess if you have a tool box, and after a good time using it you get to remove some tools and pick up new ones, enough for the new toolbox to be different enough from the old one to be considered in itself....yes, you got a new style.

But i really think that in the case of xingyiquan, you have the same tools...just different preferences when it comes to working with them. Different enough to separate them.

[Strange]

...as if when the style was compiled they wanted to create something with purposefully different tactics than your average punch kick style.

"they" say "divine spear" ji longfeng created it out of a spear form....

[edededed]

Strangely, Dai style doesn't seem to have any spear forms, though...

Anyone know about xinyiliuhequan?

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Strangely, Dai style doesn't seem to have any spear forms, though...

Anyone know about xinyiliuhequan?

From what I have been told there could be a orthodox, qiang form coming from Ma Erniu's line. I heard rumours, Yueh Jian Zhu (not sure I spelt the name properly), which is Yueh Gui Ning's son, knows a qiang and dian xue jue (p.p attacking palm held stick), but I am sure this could not be the full truth as Yan Long Chang does not know this and I understood he was passed the whole system.

The ermei ci from Yan Long Chang comes from Wang Guo'an and I have been assured is the very orthodox one. But who really knows?

XYLHQ has many different spear forms, they are outlined in a previous article written by Dr Yan on Ji Longfeng.

Jon.

[mixjourneyman]

...as if when the style was compiled they wanted to create something with purposefully different tactics than your average punch kick style.

"they" say "divine spear" ji longfeng created it out of a spear form....

The weird thing is that xingyi looks closer to spear technique to me that xylh.

[jarvis]

The weird thing is that xingyi looks closer to spear technique to me that xylh.

The Xing Yi I study has a clear relationship to spear. San Ti is practiced with a forward lean of the upper body in a lower basin, something I was unsure about having previously learned it more upright. However, hold a spear with the body this way & it becomes more difficult for an opponent to hit the body.

I can't speak for xylh as i know only what i see posted on EF.

[kreese]

The older styles seem to place more emphasis on the kind of power you can develop from the torso and within a short step (hence the gong bu). The latter day styles seem to incorporate more mobility and rely less on that kind of zero-distance power developed by sophisticated shen fa, and thus the half-step. That's how it seems to me, at least.

[lazyboxer]

Strangely, Dai style doesn't seem to have any spear forms, though...

Anyone know about xinyiliuhequan?

From what I have been told there could be a orthodox, qiang form coming from Ma Erniu's line. I heard rumours, Yueh Jian Zhu (not sure I spelt the name properly), which is Yueh Gui Ning's son, knows a qiang and dian xue jue (p.p attacking palm held stick), but I am sure this could not be the full truth as Yan Long Chang does not know this and I understood he was passed the whole system.

The ermei ci from Yan Long Chang comes from Wang Guo'an and I have been assured is the very orthodox one. But who really knows?

XYLHQ has many different spear forms, they are outlined in a previous article written by Dr Yan on Ji Longfeng.

Jon.

What say you to this, Jon?

[GrahamB]

I think it's, talking in general, a mistake to look for 'original spear forms'. It is said that instead of learning a new barehand martial art after his spear was taken away by the new Manchu rulers, Ji Long Feng instead adapted his existing spear art to barehand. So the whole art essentially is a 'spear form' every move is from spear fighting.

Ji Long Feng was in the Ming army, and when they lost the carrying of spears swords and their like by civilions was banned.

[edededed]

The older styles seem to place more emphasis on the kind of power you can develop from the torso and within a short step (hence the gong bu). The latter day styles seem to incorporate more mobility and rely less on that kind of zero-distance power developed by sophisticated shen fa, and thus the half-step. That's how it seems to me, at least.

Mmm - the later styles still "have" it, even if they are less overt. (Xingyiquan was always known for power, too.)

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Strangely, Dai style doesn't seem to have any spear forms, though...

Anyone know about xinyiliuhequan?

From what I have been told there could be a orthodox, qiang form coming from Ma Erniu's line. I heard rumours, Yueh Jian Zhu (not sure I spelt the name properly), which is Yueh Gui Ning's son, knows a qiang and dian xue jue (p.p attacking palm held stick), but I am sure this could not be the full truth as Yan Long Chang does not know this and I understood he was passed the whole system.

The ermei ci from Yan Long Chang comes from Wang Guo'an and I have been assured is the very orthodox one. But who really knows?

XYLHQ has many different spear forms, they are outlined in a previous article written by Dr Yan on Ji Longfeng.

Jon.

What say you to this, Jon?

Can anyone tell me where and who is in the photo as posted?

JB

[GrahamB]

Anyone else noticed that Andy starts these threads... then never posts on them?