Systema and Tai Chi – similarities and differences

[windwalker]

At one time felt Systema, and those practicing aikido using what they call Aiki
was quite similar in practice and theory to my own work....

Was told by a noted practitioner that I should stop using examples of it, comparing it to my taiji work, it's not the same based on a different idea..
The Aiki, talked about by another noted practitioner, using some of the same verbiage used to describe my work..

again was told by a friend who happened to practice with the noted practitioner, mentioned that even the ideas expressed by the verbiage might seem the same they were quite different expressed in usage..



should mentioned I've met some who practiced Aiki, and systema in my time....to me they both felt very similar.
Similar to what I felt from a good friend who had suggested taiji as a way of improving my mantis practice at the time many yrs back in Hawaii he used to teach Aikido in Wahiawa "Koichi Tohei " branch...


Would say the main point of difference between the practices are the philosophical underpinnings they"er based on.

Taiji based on yi, qi, shen....developing this with its attending usage the main focus.

with the caveat

Within the taiji community there are practices that are quite different from each other
often using the same terminology to describe their practices.
While at the same time developing quite different outcomes...

[Bhassler]

Would say the main point of difference between the practices are the philosophical underpinnings they're based on.

I doubt that the philosophical ideas preceded the physical. In most cases, the physical comes first, and the language develops out of a need to explain it. Usually, someone finds something that works, and then wants to understand it for the sake of replicating or improving on it. From there, the basic functional premise is expanded on-- i.e. a principle is discovered through application in situ, then someone comes up with rules that need to be followed in order to manifest the principle, and those rules are practiced through formal applications and/or drills. If you get enough drills practicing related principles, you end up with a system, and that system is codified according to the standards of the underlying culture. That would be forms, or workouts, or flows, or dances, or drills, or whatever.

Those who think they can understand the physical based upon the philosophical are misguided. It's like trying to follow a map and then saying the territory is mistaken if you wind up lost.

[windwalker]

Would say the main point of difference between the practices are the philosophical underpinnings they're based on.

Those who think they can understand the physical based upon the philosophical are misguided.
It's like trying to follow a map and then saying the territory is mistaken if you wind up lost.

Agree

allow me to share an example

At one time I had asked about something I could feel during my practice in Beijing.

I was told by my teacher through a translator

"what you feel is called "yi"
don't think about, don't try to practice or force it.
In time you will know and understand this your self."

Brought a copy of what are called the taiji classics written in English and Chinese...
Thinking I could use it as a point of reference.

He looked at laughed and handed it back...saying " if you follow this, it will make you crazy..Some of it is wrong not written by those
with the skill...."

Of course I tried to use it a couple of more times, each time he would smile and give it back to me...

He mentioned.

"the best way is through the practice..Practice until you have the skill..then you can try to explain it, if it matters ."

What I meant by " philosophical underpinnings " is that they come from a culture that has a very different worldview,
that includes things like yi, qi, shen, for which the west to my mind doesn't really have an equivalent term or usage..

[wayne hansen]

Words are just words no matter where they come from
They are just there to validate the teaching that training gifts and to show where the next direction lays

[johnwang]

The difference between Systema and Taiji is:

- Systema guys care about fighting.
- Taiji guys don't care about fighting.

[origami_itto]

This is true. I care about ending and avoiding fights, not looking for them.

[RobP3]

This is true. I care about ending and avoiding fights, not looking for them.

Don't we all. But for when you can't, or it's your job, better to have something well suited to the task available. Not to mention
all the other considerable benefits.

[origami_itto]

This is true. I care about ending and avoiding fights, not looking for them.

Don't we all. But for when you can't, or it's your job, better to have something well suited to the task available. Not to mention
all the other considerable benefits.

When there is a fight i can't avoid, I end it.

[yeniseri]

It saddens me to see people who think these two arts are similar
What it shows me is the lack of knowledge of the basics of tai chi
Systems is no closer to tai chi than TKD is

Personally and objectively,I see no similarities between TKD and Tai chi but that does not mean someone with far greater vision (tahn myself) and experience can see the "magic" of both combined.
What I do see is a function of kicking and taken into tai chi, when it becomes "kicking without kicking" though using the legs to trap, neutralize, or throw. What I mean to say would be similar to the kicjinh high thread which by itself is not feat if one is just raising ones leg higher with no other action being part of functional utility. Even some of some acquaintances poo poo trapping or neutralizing with the legs (leg qinna ) is absurd, it has its place for those who are familiar and were taught that function in their training.

[everything]

It would (maybe) be interesting to read some similar comparisons of the "big 3".

[windwalker]

It would (maybe) be interesting to read some similar comparisons of the "big 3".

Even among taiji styles methods can be quite different...

Historical stories about masters, meeting those who had a high-level skill quite different from their own...

Wei Shuren meeting his teacher

Prior to meeting Master Wang Yongquan, Master Wei was a contented master of Chen style Tai Chi Chuan. A friend told him of an old master with superlative skill that he must meet.

Master Wei famously said that there was nothing more for him to learn in Tai Chi Chuan since he had attained a high level of skill.

The friend persisted. Some two years later a reluctant Master Wei stood before Master Wang who was sitting down in a rattan chair.

Master Wei was skeptical and it must have shown on his face.
Master Wang waved Master Wei over. Leaning back in his chair Master Wang asked Wei to extend his middle fingers.

Master Wang grasped both of Wei's middle fingers by the tips, showed Wei that it would not be easy if not impossible to fajing him in this manner.

In the next instance Master Wei was thrown back, an expression of surprise on his face.

He had not expected this and in his heart knew that for all his Chen style attainment he just did not have anything close to what Master Wang just demonstrated on him.


Master Wang explaining the principles of fajing using intention skills to
Master Wei Shuren and other fellow students in a Beijing public park on 6 Jun 1987.




So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang.

https://express.adobe.com/page/WbRbg/

[wayne hansen]

What I was saying is Systema is no closer to Tai chi than most arts are

[johnwang]

What I was saying is Systema is no closer to Tai chi than most arts are

Both Systema and Taiji have "no contact combat" that other MA systems don't have.

[Bao]

I heard one person saying: "Tai Chi is like Karate. You punch and kick in Tai Chi as well."

So Tai Chi is like Karate.

By broad general statements there's no problem to make things look similar. It's when you go into the details you can understand the differences, as by examining how something is practiced, body mechanics, how power is generated etc,.

[windwalker]

I heard one person saying: "Tai Chi is like Karate. You punch and kick in Tai Chi as well."

So Tai Chi is like Karate.

By broad general statements there's no problem to make things look similar. It's when you go into the details you can understand the differences, as by examining how something is practiced, body mechanics, how power is generated etc,.

echos

even using the same verbiage methods can be very different leading to different outcomes.
Not better, different

Useful to those that find it so, having an interest in developing it.

There are too many unusual aspects that characterize GM Wei’s Tai Chi style, that sets is far, far apart from other Tai Chi styles.

I have seen some styles copying our method and some who did not learn it properly try to put their own spin on it to allow them to rise above the masses.
If you have learned the method properly you would spot right away the flaws in the arguments and teachings.

GM Wei’s approach can be copied superficially in the manner of monkey see, monkey do. To gain entry to an in-depth understanding requires the passing of the knowledge via personalized verbal and hands-on corrections from someone who has walked the path.

We can tell if someone is doing the movements superficially because there are ways to tell. It is like how a tennis professional can tell where a ball that a beginner opponent has hit will likely to end up because the pro knows where to look and how to interpret the tells that he has seen.

You need to be dedicated, focused and diligent to reach the point at which your ordinary movements take on a layer of depth that is imperceptible to outsiders including even masters of other styles.

I have seen at least one very famous master of the internal arts visit my teacher to ask questions on our Tai Chi and on the book about the 22-form.

https://mastertaichitoday.com/2022/06/1 ... e-the-box/