the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Interesting, our experience seem to be very different.

They recognize and understand skill , able to play at any level that one what would want
In the interest of exploring different possibilities and outcomes .

A good place to meet and test.

Push hands from day one, for me. Depends on what you call push hands. Fixed patterns or free flow drills. Partner can be a useful training tool from day one.

Tuishou (aka push hands, rolling hands, etc) training is a bad idea in early stages of training because one ha not developed some type, exposure, strength and degree
of what may be called "pressure testing" so "pushing air" on its own merit sets a bad precedent with the practitioner. As example, Shadow boxiing by itself is not
a substitute to prevail in a match but with bag training, cardiovascular work and partner practice done together has proven to be an excellent path to competence.

For some type of awareness, it is a good start but it needs to be put in perspective for utility and functionality!

If your main aim in the first couple days / weeks is to issue power, yes it's a bad idea. If you use the partner to loosen yourself up, to relax yourself, to get a feeling of going along with the force instead of against it, it's useful. For example, put both your arms around the arm pits and upper back of the partner. The partner slightly to mediumly drops their weight into the floor. The hugger shakes excess tension out of the partner by gently rocking them back and forth, side to side and twisting their spine.

It’s not about when it’s about how

wayne hansen wrote:It’s not about when it’s about how

I always ask my new students to spar/wrestle with old students during the first day. The new students may not know what to do. But they will soon find out what's missing and what will be needed. That kind of understanding will help them to have faith in CMA and have a clear goal for the rest of their MA training.

wayne hansen wrote:It’s not about when it’s about how

I always ask my new students to spar/wrestle with old students during the first day. The new students may not know what to do. But they will soon find out what's missing and what will be needed. That kind of understanding will help them to have faith in CMA and have a clear goal for the rest of their MA training.

wayne hansen wrote:It’s not about when it’s about how

What do you think students need to be able to do as a primary prerequisite for push hands? Would you say qi sensations, maybe a sense of heaviness? or is more required?

I mean if someone is actively trying to be light and not use force and following the leader in push hands, where could they go wrong (if) some level of gong is required first, and what particular kind of gong do you feel is required, then?

Each student is an individual and can’t be taught the same
One thing I tell students is I won’t ask them to move to a different place in the hall
I will grab push pull or barge them into where I want them
It is up to them to respond stay aware and regain their balance

Appledog wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:It’s not about when it’s about how

What do you think students need to be able to do as a primary prerequisite for push hands? Would you say qi sensations, maybe a sense of heaviness? or is more required?

"Qi sensation" is not even a criteria for push hands/rolling hands/etc. It is a waste of time and only benefits those who can get extra money for showing parlour tricks.
It is useless! No vale la pena.......

Appledog wrote:

wayne hansen wrote:It’s not about when it’s about how

What do you think students need to be able to do as a primary prerequisite for push hands? Would you say qi sensations, maybe a sense of heaviness? or is more required?

I mean if someone is actively trying to be light and not use force and following the leader in push hands, where could they go wrong (if) some level of gong is required first, and what particular kind of gong do you feel is required, then?

if you believe push hands is watered-down wrestling or something else, why not just start wrestling right away. if you want to pursue a "different quality" idk, maybe this is where quigga's singing analogy applies. there is nothing wrong with playing guitar. if you want to try to learn to sing, it seems different and rather difficult. some people don't even realize they are bad at it, lol.

everything wrote:if you believe push hands is watered-down wrestling or something else, why not just start wrestling right away.

If you add in leg control, there are not that much different between Taiji PH and wrestling.

Adam Hsu has very good explanations about why Taiji is a good MA in this clip. It's so sad that not too many people want to get into this level of understanding such as:

- Use opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm.
- Use leg to control your opponent's leg.
- Use your body to attack your opponent's body.
- Use your body to push/pull your limbs.
- Lead your opponent into the emptiness.
- Don't block on your opponent's forearm, but to block on his elbow joint.
- ...

windwalker wrote:Interesting, our experience seem to be very different. [...] A good place to meet and test.

I have no idea what you mean. I said, "The last time I went I met a number of very pleasant and helpful people. I found someone to work with for about a half an hour, ..." etc. How are our experiences different? Sun Lutang and Hao Weizhen at Tanagra?

I've seen many people try to install a side door to this art and I have seen where the doors come from and I have seen it lead to results I am not interested in every time. There are plenty of people who can push me around. It's not about that. It's about me refusing to capitulate with what I believe I want to learn. Maybe I should give up childish beliefs and fall in line with something, I don't know. But I am not ready to give up just yet. I have seen the light, and I want what I want.

Anyways,

As far as I can tell the demarcation line is a well-executed form. This is a bit of a cop-out because the question becomes, then, "what qualities of form execution are required to define 'well-executed'"? Lifting the crown? Relaxation? Chen jin bu gu? Kai kua? Heaviness?

Here's an interesting thought. If push hands was the way to increase one's skill, then who did Chen Fa-Ke push hands with? Ahh. So, while Push Hands might be important to check oneself or to develop something, apparently repeated practice of the form can be more important than push hands. So then I am left wondering, what is this energy expression one can learn from the form? Apparently, Chen Fa-Ke, for example, learned this skill solely from forms practice.

Here's the kicker. I know Chen style, Sun style, and Yang style. I did Wu style for a few years, and even so-called Taoist Tai Chi. I did Yang style for a long, long time and discovered many things doing it. One thing I figured in retrospect is that despite the wide variations in form and execution all of them can prepare you for push hands. This leads me to believe there is some subtle body gong that one acquires from the principles of tai chi in general that can prepare you for starting push hands. In other words, a "well-executed form" is not necessarily one with precise movements, only one in which the internal principles are correct (and the form is useful otherwise). Therefore, I prefer a form in which the movements have a greater propensity to induce the proper body gong.

I have also heard rumors, which gel with experience, that all of the push hands applications come from the form. Perhaps the ability to wei wu wei such things into push hands is the requirement. As far as requirements go, it seems a pretty decent one.

Appledog wrote:

windwalker wrote:Interesting, our experience seem to be very different. [...] A good place to meet and test.

I have no idea what you mean. I said, "The last time I went I met a number of very pleasant and helpful people. I found someone to work with for about a half an hour, ..." etc. How are our experiences different? Sun Lutang and Hao Weizhen at Tanagra?

Those there liked my skill set introducing me to their teacher.
Their teacher tried to push with me, not able to find a point to push.
He attempted to use hard force trying to pull me down...out of respect for him and his students I stopped smiled and told him he had good skill.

.

"I know Chen style, Sun style, and Yang style."

really ? impressive

My own knowledge of them comes from interactions with the stylist who said they practiced them.



In China, when asked if one understood or said they "knew" something it was expected that they could use it,
in a basic testing medium "push hands"