Sun style TJQ question.

[JAB]

Don't forget that Sun Taiji has a lot of the body method of Bagua (storing and releasing of power from the hips / kua). The Xing Yi follow step is prevelant as well.
Cheers
Jake

[Harvey]

IME the follow step is there but is nowhere near as dynamic as that of XY, it's more by consequence of the kua use than a full on follow like in Beng quan

[GrahamB]

Don't forget that Sun Taiji has a lot of the body method of Bagua (storing and releasing of power from the hips / kua). The Xing Yi follow step is prevelant as well.
Cheers
Jake

The follow step using in Sun Tai Ji seems to have come from Wu/Hou style (as previous video shows, or in fact, any video of Hao style will show), so I don't think you can say "XingYi follow step".

[Doc Stier]

Doc Stier - do you teach TCM by apprenticeship the way you learned from your teacher?

Of course. It is by far the best way to learn accurate case taking, traditional examination and diagnostic procedures, classical treatment techniques, herbal formulae preparation, and so forth. However, I learned the older classical methods before modern TCM became the popular standard method now taught at most schools of Chinese/Oriental medicine.

If you wish to pursue this line of work as a career path, it is now necessary in most places to complete a several year program of study at an Accredited School in order to qualify to sit for the Licensure Exam.

Doc

[JAB]

Well Graham it is in every combat sport, so if you REALLY want to split hairs I doubt we can attribute it to any one specific style, martial art, or anything else. You will find it in all combat sports regardless of cultural origin.

As for how much it is "expressed" or how "dynamic" (whatever that means to begin with) I would suppose that is all subjective as to how you were taught XY, and how each person understands it.

Jake

[Harvey]

I think the simplest difference is that in XY a portion of the weight is returned to the leg follow stepping giving the shocking fa of XY but in Sun TJ the weight isn't always put back into that leg.

[JAB]

Not always. But it is not always dropped back into the following leg in all XY either
Cheers
Jake

[Bao]

in Sun TJ the weight isn't always put back into that leg.

Yes, Sun taiji footwork is not XY footwork - because sun taijiquan is still foremost taijiquan and not a mix of tj-bg-xy. Sun/hao footwork is actually more flowing than any XY. In taijiquan, one movement flows into the other one. Because of the footwork in sun taiji, you seldom stop in one stance, but move on directly to another. I would actually say that sun/hao footwork is more like bagua circle walking than xy follow-up steps. No, I would go even further and suggest that the hao footwork even influenced Sun Lutangs bagua! Why? - Because the footwork in Sun style BGZ is even more flowing than in Cheng style. You try to never stop in one position, always move on to another one. For instance, when you finish one of the trigrams, you don't stop and rest in the single change position as you see in Cheng style, you must continue to walk the circle.

What was the name again on SLT's student in the taijiquan episode of "China's living treasures"? I think that is the only demo you can find which shows the real flavor of the Sun taijiquan footwork. It was quite fast and he looks like he almost jumps the in the transitions and throws his whole body. It was a long time I saw that vid (and have been looking for it. Hopefully someone can put up that clip on the web). But there you can see the real difference between Sun taiji footwork compared to XY, BG or even compared to Hao taiji. I think that maybe Sun Jianyun and Sun peng are to old on the 2 vids on youtube. They can not really show the art with the same dynamic quality.

[GrahamB]

in Sun TJ the weight isn't always put back into that leg.

Yes, Sun taiji footwork is not XY footwork -

Sadly, it's not that black and white. The footwork looks different to 5 Elements footwork (pi, beng, etc), yes, but once you start looking into the animals you find the exact footwork done in Ji Xing (at least in our line there is). So, it's not so cut and dried as to say it's not XY footwork, however, it's no word of a lie to say that the Sun Taiji footwork comes from the Hao style, since it's exactly the same.

[Harvey]

Graham I'm not saying the step isn't in Ji Xing I would say that the following of chicken step with the light foot is very close to the gathering step of Sun TJ (but done in a more XY way_, but to me the follow step of XY is very much the usage in Beng. Like I said on another thread it's the differences and nuances to watch out for that help make each special

[GrahamB]

Graham I'm not saying the step isn't in Ji Xing I would say that the following of chicken step with the light foot is very close to the gathering step of Sun TJ (but done in a more XY way_, but to me the follow step of XY is very much the usage in Beng. Like I said on another thread it's the differences and nuances to watch out for that help make each special

Dang man, I don't really understand the point you're making!

"the follow step of XY is very much the usage in Beng" - what does that mean?

It's also hard to understand what people mean once they use the words "chicken step", since that can mean different things to different people.

The main point I'm making is that the Sun stepping clearly comes from Wu/Hou style. This idea that he incorporated XY stepping into Tai Chi is wrong - that stepping pattern he uses was already there in the style he learned. The secondary point I'm making is that this stepping pattern doesn't look exactly like 5 elements stepping, which is mainly rear weighted (although it could look like some lines of XY's 5 Elements, which is the point Jake makes - it depends on what you were taught. Since Master Sun was taught by Gou Yun Shen I'm assuming he was taught Hebei style) but it does look just like some other stepping patterns that are found in XY, so it is in there somewhere.

[Harvey]

ok Graham crossed wires, I think we are trying to make the same point. There is a similar style of stepping in XY but the commonist follow step, we learnt it with Beng so thats what we call it is the half bamboo step.

[GrahamB]

ok Graham crossed wires, I think we are trying to make the same point. There is a similar style of stepping in XY but the commonist follow step, we learnt it with Beng so thats what we call it is the half bamboo step.

Ah, right see what you mean. I've seen some people step up very close in Beng so that the feet are almost together. Then there's also Half-Step Beng, where you feet are pretty together (that's your "half bamboo step"?)

[kreese]

I understand. I just feel that alongside licensure, working side-by-side with a mentor is key to really understanding the art of Chinese medicine. I would strongly consider moving to Austin at some point because the TCM school, you, John Wang, an awesome music scene, and the university.

Doc Stier - do you teach TCM by apprenticeship the way you learned from your teacher?

Of course. It is by far the best way to learn accurate case taking, traditional examination and diagnostic procedures, classical treatment techniques, herbal formulae preparation, and so forth. However, I learned the older classical methods before modern TCM became the popular standard method now taught at most schools of Chinese/Oriental medicine.

If you wish to pursue this line of work as a career path, it is now necessary in most places to complete a several year program of study at an Accredited School in order to qualify to sit for the Licensure Exam.

Doc

[Harvey]

ok Graham crossed wires, I think we are trying to make the same point. There is a similar style of stepping in XY but the commonist follow step, we learnt it with Beng so thats what we call it is the half bamboo step.

Ah, right see what you mean. I've seen some people step up very close in Beng so that the feet are almost together. Then there's also Half-Step Beng, where you feet are pretty together (that's your "half bamboo step"?)

Bingo, on the same page now