Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)
Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:37 pm
Are you talking about single arm "circles" and what "powers" the circles? Which one? "Positive" or "negative"?
I was talking about a standard horse stance or symmetrical posture. When you wrote a few posts back about holding both arms in front above you and then twisting down in frontI just assumed it'd be a standard horse stance but with feet shoulder width apart. What I wrote was to illustrate a sort of template structure for determining shun and ni from a static posture and mapping this on to a symmetrical posture, based on a 'feeling of connection' while moving as per the single arm positive/negative circle movements. It's more about using the static posture to get an idea of where in the bodyyou should feel the point where you are opening and closing and transfer this to a moving assymetrical posture such as cloud hands.
The method involves using the abdomen ("center") to drive the motion of the extremities: all movement is initiated in the abdomen and all movement completes in the abdomen. "Energy" goes out from the center, "energy" returns to the center. The single hand circle is a method of training to develop that ability. The result of energy going out from the abdomen to the extremities (e.g. hand) in the positive circle is that the palm rotates to face outwards/downwards. The result of energy returning from the extremities (e.g. hand) in the positive circle is that the palm rotates to face inwards/upwards. The rotation of the palm is a result of what is happening elsewhere: the "engine" is the abdomen and there is a "drive train" that ends at and causes the motion of the extremities.
I am aware that the abdomen is driving the motion of the limbs. When I mentioned the pushing outwards during the Ni phase (from 1 to 3, in your example) I probably should have stated as per the IMA rule of moving from the root when going out and going back in from the tips. It's probably not a big deal to most people as they likely always doing this part correctly but in my case as I would find I'd get 'stuck' if not having a subtle intent to move out from the shoulder.
It's more like a 'hollowing' vs 'non-hollowing'. When moving out dont hollow the chest but when going in, hollow it so that the hand dont cramp up.
In the video that robert posted of chen Bing, Bing mentions about the cramping of the hand is easy to do. I find the reason for this, in my case, is because of the
position of the ribcage. The ribcage rotates or slide around the central axis in a side to side motion in mostly frontal plane and it feels more
'oriented' to the right side because I always anticipate my hand cramping up when doing a right arm positive circle but it rarely happens with a left arm exercise. So its easy
to mess this part up and do excess motion on the left side and 'toss'. Having said that I have loosened up enough so far to get the ribcage so its able to 'abduct' to the left
side of body but the difficulty is holding it fixed in position around the shoulder area. Most likely due to stagnation ( I do have some of that in my lower back still). But this rotational motion of the ribcage is as a result of the back gradually becoming looser and the only way to stop it from moving so much lies in strengthening the silk strands i.e. doing shun and ni correctly and locking everything down. Most peoples ribcage's dont move like this but getting motion in all 3 planes is what we are aiming for in part, during these exercises
In a standard symmetrical posture such as a horse stance yes Ni is to open and Shun is to close; this is
what I was referring to above in my first comment but when we are in assymetrical postures its more difficult to tell which is which. Because the abdomen is leading the motion sometimes I find the palms might turn a little too much or too little. These mistakes are all due to existing stagnation/tension that makes one 'bypass' those areas sometimes.
This is why having the step counts along the way like what CZH showed in the 7 count steps really helps one to keep a checklist.
Half of the "circle" is opening and half is closing. How is it possible to do both while "keeping the ribcage sunk"? The ribcage should be very active as it opens and closes. I don't think that one addresses tightness in one part of the body by introducing unnecessary tensions in other parts. If you risk wrenching or injuring your spine, likely your actions are incorrect.
When you mentioned about half the circle opening/closing, yes I agree. The 'ribcage sunk' part is like a preparation state which you should also end with
it's more like a double shun starting posture or at least you try to relax into double shun.
The difficulty in my case lies not with not understanding the shun and ni concepts but in feeling when you switch the ni/shun palms which is dependent on whether you have reachedthat point in the posture. When I mentioned above about ribcage frontal plane motion, this is vital to have before doing any posture as it will enable you to
lock the shoulder joints in place for when you do twisting with palms. This is as much about neurology as anything else and for such a profound change in the body structure
we do have to feel certain things are in place before moving on to subsequent steps.
But i'll briefly mention with an example so you have an idea what im getting at I use a moving cloud hands version as part of my training. So I start by putting all the weight
on the right leg which causes that leg to spiral in and at this point the ribcage feels like it is sinking down towards the the right lower, back quadrant and causes the left side of ribcage to move into upper left, front quadrant of the body. So I do Ni chan and hold it up (so it dosen't sink down too much and close my hip joint) and wait for a connection to occur on the left side of the body to lock the shoulder joint in place. AND then repeat the proces on the left leg so that the ribcage rises up on the right and sinks down on the left and lock the right shoulder. Once you got this initial part right (its not easy) then you can do more repetitions which facilitates better loosening than in static postures, far better imo.
But the important thing I want to ask you about this process if you can imagine it, as the ribcage sinks in when one side is doing NI chan (opening) and rises up on the other side (shun chan closing)
do you believe that the back opens up on say the right side for Ni chan and closes down on the left side for shun chan and vice-versa?
I ask this because the ribcage is, as you say very active in opening and closing, and this is how Im currently 'feeling' it. A sinking on one side which opens up the back
on that side occurs when I do Ni chan; and a corresponding closing down of the back on the other side for shun chan?
This is why I think we do Ni chan and shun chan as I've described it, Ni chan stops the rib cage from sinking too much down into the lower quadrants of the body in the back
whereas shun chan prevents the ribcage from popping out the front of the top front quadrants.
Hong's style has some significant differences from other Chen variants: what is "right" in Hong style is "wrong" in Chen Village/Feng styles; what is "right" in Village/Feng styles is "wrong" in Hong style. Start by learning one or the other: trying to mix and match will not likely produce much success.
What are the major differences in the body method? just so I can be aware of what to borrow and what not to borrow
There is really only one way: study with someone who is skilled in what you want to learn. Books, videos, discussion forums can help, but cannot substitute for a qualified teacher.
In my opinion, the most difficult basic skill is the ability to really "let go" or "relax". (It isn't the same thing as being limp.) In my opinion, without the requisite level of "relaxation" or "looseness", one cannot acquire more advanced skills. I suggest you not underestimate just how difficult it is to achieve that level of "relaxation", or how important it is as a foundation of traditional skills.
It is a difficult endeavor to completely relax, requires a lot of patience but still you have to do a lot of prep. work because the one thing that will stifle dantien leading movement is stagnation in the body especially when the fascia around the abdomen feels knotted up. I put it down to years of weight training (and many other poor lifestyle choices) around 16/17 and into my early 30's at which point I stopped. Thats a long time for pathological tension to build into the body and all sorts of compensations.
There is a lot of good articles and videos out there from the chen's, many good translations as well so westerners like us can pick things up. But yeah nothing beats a competent teacher, trouble is finding a good one, not many of them left or they are in another country.