the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

wayne hansen wrote:Visuliasion is a basic level of tai chi in both pushing and combat
The real ability comes from feeling not thinking

Agreed to 100%.

Not even many people who understand say how it is. People don't like to listen to words that are easy to understand as "feel" or "awareness". They like popular and fussy terms as "Mind" and "Visualisation", which is in fact mostly misunderstood.

Or maybe we should say that visualisation is mostly misunderstood and overemphasized here in the West. Much has to with a misunderstanding of the Chinese character "xin", 心, that is usually translated into "mind". The character "心" though literary means "heart". What is usually meant in Chinese thought is your emotional judgement, which is also responsible for your moral and ethical development and growth.

What is actually meant by "to use xin" in Tai Chi, or that you must "use the mind" while practicing is not about visualisation as most people believe. But in fact, it means that you need to study your art committed, through an emotional commitment (as doing something deeply focused and with great passion), and with a long term goal in mind.

What is actually meant by "to use xin" in Tai Chi, or that you must "use the mind" while practicing is not about visualisation as most people believe.

Who believes that?

Bao wrote:What is actually meant by "to use xin" in Tai Chi, or that you must "use the mind" while practicing is not about visualisation as most people believe. But in fact, it means that you need to study your art committed, through an emotional commitment (as doing something deeply focused and with great passion), and with a long term goal in mind.

That's an interesting explanation. Can you provide more info on how that relates to the internal harmonies?

Concerning the heart mind....


from another thread outlining it...

My interpretation at this moment is:-
心意本無法 - We cannot get Heart & Intent by using any method.
有法是虛無 - If we really need a method, the method is emptiness.

The ZEN temple focus on finding one's own heart through mindfulness to bring out one's intuition.

Through the feeling in the details of everything (include movements) happens around, it arouses a deeper and deeper awareness.



The awareness leads where the one to go. LHBF starts from finding the awareness, train the awareness, and go with the awareness.

Hey, I just know that I don't believe that. Anyone who thought I did must not understand what I said.
Oh, I don't agree with the rebuttal or the explanation, either. But, so what? If it makes sense to you, that's cool.

No argument here about the importance of "feeling," but the thread was about meditation and mental stuff. By definition, feelings have to be felt. If people don't want to talk about what they can't feel, then they shouldn't talk about it.

oragami_itto wrote:I've seen people with top notch skills say here and elsewhere that meditation (seated?) is what brought them to that level.

I was curious what the group thought of that claim. Is a particular type of meditation better than others? What is the connection between meditation and taijiquan skills?

Zen meditation, might be one of the more direct methods, used by many Japanese, martial art practitioners.
also more pointedly by Japanese martial methods themselves cultivating this aspect.

Had there been a direct connection between taiji and meditation, think more would have been written about it..
The connection to "taiji" based on cultural philosophical aspects thought by some to be embodied by it's unique approach. hence the name "taiji"

As to other sports with some using mediation to enhance their skill sets.
It might be a case where the sport or activity is not tied directly to a cultural philosophical concept thought to be expressed in
a physical art, by those within the culture. For some in the west religion, plays a vital role thought to enhance achievements in their activity.

Form does not differ from Emptiness Emptiness does not differ from Form.

Those not understanding the “heart “ mind

The heart sutra expresses this very well....

Chinese characters often have multiple meanings and what the character means is determined by context. 心, xin, is no different. One online dictionary returns heart / mind / intention / center / core. Here are some examples from the taijiquan classics.

以心行氣。務沈著。乃能收歛入骨。
Use your mind (xin) to move energy (qi). You must get the energy to sink.

以運氣運身。務順遂。乃能便利從心。所謂屈伸開合聼自由也。
Use energy (qi) to move your body. You must get the energy to be smooth. Your body can then easily obey your mind (xin).

心為令。旗氣為旗。神為主帥。身為驅使。所謂意氣君來骨肉臣也。
Your mind (xin) makes the command and the energy (qi) is its signal flag. Your spirit is the general and your body is the army.

I often translate xin as heart/mind. In the first example - Use your mind (xin) to move energy (qi), I think any of the translations work; heart / mind / intention / center / core. What I've been taught regarding 以心行氣,intention is a better translation.

I think it's interesting to note that the ancients didn't agree on where intelligence was located in the body. In ancient Greece some people thought it was in the heart and others the brain. Aristotle thought it was in the heart.

The heart has played an important role in understanding the body since antiquity. In the fourth century B. C., the Greek philosopher Aristotle identified the heart as the most important organ of the body, the first to form according to his observations of chick embryos. It was the seat of intelligence, motion, and sensation -- a hot, dry organ. Aristotle described it as a three-chambered organ that was the center of vitality in the body. Other organs surrounding it (e.g. brain and lungs) simply existed to cool the heart.

https://web.stanford.edu/class/history13/earlysciencelab/body/heartpages/heart.html#:~:text=The%20heart%20has%20played%20an%20important%20role%20in,motion%2C%20and%20sensation%20--%20a%20hot%2C%20dry%20organ.

Of particular note is the division of ancient Greek thinkers into two camps, encephalocentrism and cardiocentrism. Encephalocentrism is the theory that the mind is in the brain, and cardiocentrism holds that the mind is in the heart. At the time that these two schools of thought emerged, the very notion that the “mind” was a singular entity that could be localized to any single organ was new. Before encephalocentrism and cardiocentrism came to dominate the intellectual discourse surrounding the mind around the 5th century BCE, philosophers in Homeric times (around the 8th century BCE) thought that there were multiple “souls,” each associated with a different aspect of mentality and each localizable to a different body part.

https://thebrainscientist.com/2013/11/04/greek-philosophy-and-neuroscience/

I think the last quote is interesting in that some ancient Chinese thought each organ had a spirit.

What meditation do I practice?
There lies the rub
I ask what of my practice is not meditation
Total abandonment to tai chi it’s method and form and the lessons it leads
It’s principles it’s rules abandonment to your partners lead
Invest in loss
Wu wei
What other meditation is there

Yep, imo, there are several minds, but only one "thinks." I can think of one that definitely has a mind of its own that has to be ... controlled.

I think someone here from Down under remember the guy who talked about the "animal" (reptile) part of the brain and its effect on tcc. In fact, in the brain, one might say there are several minds too. Ok, let's agree the brain has parts that do different things --you know, and why we don't have to think about breathing. I also think it's interesting to consider how to unite those minds/parts of the brain, and imo meditative practices probably help. However, there are many forms of meditative practices, as windwalker pointed out. Zen in the art of tcc would make a good book, if there isn't one already.

Anyway, I can't argue anything about a Chinese term for exactly the reasons Robert stated. Even if one knows the language, one needs to know how the speaker/writer is using it in context, and then understand that context.

robert wrote:Chinese characters often have multiple meanings and what the character means is determined by context. 心, xin, is no different. One online dictionary returns heart / mind / intention / center / core. Here are some examples from the taijiquan classics.

以心行氣。務沈著。乃能收歛入骨。
Use your mind (xin) to move energy (qi). You must get the energy to sink.

以運氣運身。務順遂。乃能便利從心。所謂屈伸開合聼自由也。
Use energy (qi) to move your body. You must get the energy to be smooth. Your body can then easily obey your mind (xin).

心為令。旗氣為旗。神為主帥。身為驅使。所謂意氣君來骨肉臣也。
Your mind (xin) makes the command and the energy (qi) is its signal flag. Your spirit is the general and your body is the army.

I often translate xin as heart/mind. In the first example - Use your mind (xin) to move energy (qi), I think any of the translations work; heart / mind / intention / center / core. What I've been taught regarding 以心行氣,intention is a better translation.

Can you do any of what you translated ?

for example,,,how do "you" use the "qi" to move your body ?

The man you talk of with snake brain
Born in England died in England
Just a tourist here in oz

oragami_itto wrote:I've seen people with top notch skills say here and elsewhere that meditation (seated?) is what brought them to that level.

I was curious what the group thought of that claim. Is a particular type of meditation better than others? What is the connection between meditation and taijiquan skills?

I don't think I've heard or learned that. Perhaps you are thinking of zhan zhuang (with some venn diagram overlap with meditation). Wang Xiangzhai (creator of yiquan) supposedly learned zhan zhuang as the foundational xingyiquan lesson/exercise from Guo Yunsheng (xingyiquan master). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Yunshen. this is said to be key. the questions ww asked should go with that key. it's important to ask the right questions to find the right door...in all things but def here ... sorry to be too philosophical.

windwalker wrote:Can you do any of what you translated ?

for example,,,how do "you" use the "qi" to move your body ?

Yes, I've been taught the qi model. I received hands on corrections and my instructors indicated whether my posture or movements were correct. They pointed out where the qi was flowing and where it was blocked. There are sensations associated with these conditions. In the taijiquan classics it is written - Always remember: if one part moves, every part moves, and if one part is still, every part is still. It all follows from this. The correct sensation of qi guides my body.

robert wrote:I think it's interesting to note that the ancients didn't agree on where intelligence was located in the body. In ancient Greece some people thought it was in the heart and others the brain. Aristotle thought it was in the heart.

The heart has played an important role in understanding the body since antiquity. In the fourth century B. C., the Greek philosopher Aristotle identified the heart as the most important organ of the body, the first to form according to his observations of chick embryos. It was the seat of intelligence, motion, and sensation -- a hot, dry organ. Aristotle described it as a three-chambered organ that was the center of vitality in the body. Other organs surrounding it (e.g. brain and lungs) simply existed to cool the heart.

https://web.stanford.edu/class/history13/earlysciencelab/body/heartpages/heart.html#:~:text=The%20heart%20has%20played%20an%20important%20role%20in,motion%2C%20and%20sensation%20--%20a%20hot%2C%20dry%20organ.

Of particular note is the division of ancient Greek thinkers into two camps, encephalocentrism and cardiocentrism. Encephalocentrism is the theory that the mind is in the brain, and cardiocentrism holds that the mind is in the heart. At the time that these two schools of thought emerged, the very notion that the “mind” was a singular entity that could be localized to any single organ was new. Before encephalocentrism and cardiocentrism came to dominate the intellectual discourse surrounding the mind around the 5th century BCE, philosophers in Homeric times (around the 8th century BCE) thought that there were multiple “souls,” each associated with a different aspect of mentality and each localizable to a different body part.

Well the heart is physically near the solar plexus, and the belly is all wrapped up in the enteric nervous system. They're both extremely rich in neurons, and what is a brain but a bunch of neurons? The ENS can actually function without communicating with the brain at all. If I were a research scientist I'd be exploring exactly how much ancillary functionality they add to the body (beyond digestion) and how focused attention i.e. meditation can develop that functionality. We know using neural pathways strengthens them, hence projecting awareness into the body energizes the pathways and cultivates those stronger connections. This is all "muscle memory" really is.

Octopodes are among the most intelligent animals on earth and have about 500 million total neurons with about 350 distributed among the tentacles, and those tentacles are capable of independent stimulus and response without any interaction with the brain. The ENS in humans also has about 500 million neurons, and as previously mentioned has been shown to be able to do its job of regulating the gut without consulting the brain.

So at the very least, I hypothesize, dantien based meditative practices influence the development of the ENS, which proper functioning has demonstrated effects on mental, emotional, and physical health. I speculate that it may also improve balance and reaction time and the overall motor function of the lower body.

everything wrote:

oragami_itto wrote:I've seen people with top notch skills say here and elsewhere that meditation (seated?) is what brought them to that level.

I was curious what the group thought of that claim. Is a particular type of meditation better than others? What is the connection between meditation and taijiquan skills?

I don't think I've heard or learned that. Perhaps you are thinking of zhan zhuang (with some venn diagram overlap with meditation). Wang Xiangzhai (creator of yiquan) supposedly learned zhan zhuang as the foundational xingyiquan lesson/exercise from Guo Yunsheng (xingyiquan master). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Yunshen. this is said to be key. the questions ww asked should go with that key. it's important to ask the right questions to find the right door...in all things but def here ... sorry to be too philosophical.

No. They were specifically referring to seated practice.