Xinyi - Xingyi: Relationship?

[lazyboxer]

From what I have been told there could be a orthodox, qiang form coming from Ma Erniu's line. I heard rumours, Yueh Jian Zhu (not sure I spelt the name properly), which is Yueh Gui Ning's son, knows a qiang and dian xue jue (p.p attacking palm held stick), but I am sure this could not be the full truth as Yan Long Chang does not know this and I understood he was passed the whole system.

The ermei ci from Yan Long Chang comes from Wang Guo'an and I have been assured is the very orthodox one. But who really knows?

XYLHQ has many different spear forms, they are outlined in a previous article written by Dr Yan on Ji Longfeng.

Jon.

What say you to this, Jon?

Can anyone tell me where and who is in the photo as posted?

JB

I thought you might know - that's what I'm trying to find out too. The photo is from a fascinating 25 minute documentary on Shanxi xinyi/xingyi, featuring your uncle Cao Jizhi. It appears to have been taken around 1900.

[Strange]

just bought a book featuring dai family weapons by wang yi over the new year.
it even comes with a vcd, featuring wang ying hai and many other students and practitioners.
the book shows 2 spear routine/pattern.
one is jibengong set and the other zilu qiang
the book says that dai kui taught ziluqiang to his disciple gao shengzhen

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

JB[/quote]
I thought you might know - that's what I'm trying to find out too. The photo is from a fascinating 25 minute documentary on Shanxi xinyi/xingyi, featuring your uncle Cao Jizhi. It appears to have been taken around 1900.[/quote][/quote]

Got a link to the documentary?

Jon.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

just bought a book featuring dai family weapons by wang yi over the new year.
it even comes with a vcd, featuring wang ying hai and many other students and practitioners.
the book shows 2 spear routine/pattern.
one is jibengong set and the other zilu qiang
the book says that dai kui taught ziluqiang to his disciple gao shengzhen

I have this book it is a collection of weaponry from various lines, Ma Er Niu, Gao Shengzhen, etc.

Jon

[lazyboxer]

I thought you might know - that's what I'm trying to find out too. The photo is from a fascinating 25 minute documentary on Shanxi xinyi/xingyi, featuring your uncle Cao Jizhi. It appears to have been taken around 1900.

Got a link to the documentary?

Jon.

Part 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4WOt7wXJEXU
Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6JfrH4qXXmI (the image is at 2:23-2:33)
Part 3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ugQrIbSpY
Part 4 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4vE0q7hNtko

[ChizV]

On a photo - guards of caravans (Biao). Shishu Cao just tells about biao..

[Daniel]

Thanks for the videos, Lazyb. Great stuff.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

I thought you might know - that's what I'm trying to find out too. The photo is from a fascinating 25 minute documentary on Shanxi xinyi/xingyi, featuring your uncle Cao Jizhi. It appears to have been taken around 1900.

Got a link to the documentary?

Jon.

Part 1 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4WOt7wXJEXU
Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6JfrH4qXXmI (the image is at 2:23-2:33)
Part 3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_8ugQrIbSpY
Part 4 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4vE0q7hNtko

Ok, thanks for the links I have seen this before, it shows Wang Yinhai's son on the 1st part performing, Wu Tang Za Shi, etc. I did not watch the rest for the moment.

Jon.

[masterwill]

In yue fei's army( who creat xingyi and xinyi),all the Generals practise xingyi,but soldiers practise xinyi.because for soldiers they need something which should easy to learn and useful MA,so yue fei creat xinyi from his xingyi for all soldiers,but for Generals they are looking for higher level,so they do xing yi.also u can say xin yi is a external but which belong to internal martial art.
but most of people will like xin yi alot.because everybody wanna study things quickly,I think that's also one of the reason why the real IMA developed not so well.it takes time.

[lazyboxer]

Thanks, Jon - look forward to getting your insights on the rest.

[lazyboxer]

In yue fei's army( who creat xingyi and xinyi),all the Generals practise xingyi,but soldiers practise xinyi.because for soldiers they need something which should easy to learn and useful MA,so yue fei creat xinyi from his xingyi for all soldiers,but for Generals they are looking for higher level,so they do xing yi.also u can say xin yi is a external but which belong to internal martial art.
but most of people will like xin yi alot.because everybody wanna study things quickly,I think that's also one of the reason why the real IMA developed not so well.it takes time.

This sort of traditional account only begs the question of what xingyi, or for that matter any other martial art, really is. Is it a set of abstract principles? Is it an expression of a particular underlying traditional philosophy? Is it a historically established way of moving the body to maximize combat effectiveness, with health and longevity practises thrown in for good measure? If it's the latter, we're in big trouble, given the huge differences to be seen over a single generation, let alone the hundreds of years since the era of this or that mythical founder.

There is, however, anthropological, linguistic and archaeological evidence of continuity in apparently unrelated sequences of cultural development, and in the persistence of custom and concept through time, although not always through space. Defining cultural attributes rarely survive export outside their native milieu, or exposure to more powerful and compelling foreign imports. How successfully, for instance, has the United States been able to export even such a big idea as its particular form of democracy?

[Josealb]

In yue fei's army( who creat xingyi and xinyi),all the Generals practise xingyi,but soldiers practise xinyi.because for soldiers they need something which should easy to learn and useful MA,so yue fei creat xinyi from his xingyi for all soldiers,but for Generals they are looking for higher level,so they do xing yi.also u can say xin yi is a external but which belong to internal martial art.
but most of people will like xin yi alot.because everybody wanna study things quickly,I think that's also one of the reason why the real IMA developed not so well.it takes time.

Got basic history?

Edit: Maybe its just the language barrier kicking in...

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

In yue fei's army( who creat xingyi and xinyi),all the Generals practise xingyi,but soldiers practise xinyi.because for soldiers they need something which should easy to learn and useful MA,so yue fei creat xinyi from his xingyi for all soldiers,but for Generals they are looking for higher level,so they do xing yi.also u can say xin yi is a external but which belong to internal martial art.
but most of people will like xin yi alot.because everybody wanna study things quickly,I think that's also one of the reason why the real IMA developed not so well.it takes time.

Hi Will,

The whole story with Yueh Fei creating a martial art for his soldiers as far as I know expired long ago. There has been quite some research done recently on Xin Yi Liu He Quans origins, by researcher/practitioners like, Jiafei, Jarek, Ma Lei Shi and Dr Yan. Recently the subject of interest that was brought to my attention was the Tong Bei Quan/XYLHQ connection. If you search on this board you will find it, otherwise I guess I can email it to you. Supposedly (I never had a chance to compare) the original Tong Be Quan chuan pu names match a lot of the terminology in XYLHQ.

Xing Yi Quan was created with Dai Xin Yi Quan as a base and then further developed under Li Laoneng and other experts.

As a Dai Xin Yi Quan practitioner I am told, Li Laoneng was taught by Guo Weihan. Guo was a nephew of Dai Longbang's 2nd wife. It is said that Li Laoneng was taught a modified version of Dai, without the, hu bu (bow stance) and Dai shen fa (dan tian rotations), either due to the time limit they had to train him or could be to not pass on the art in it's entirety, due to strict secrecy of the clan art.

People have mentioned that Li Laoneng created the, tuo xing (water lizard), this is not true, this is almost identical to Dai, she xing (snake).

As for the whole internal/external debate, I am very sick of hearing about this anymore, to me this is just a debate started by the literati and if you practice, wai jia quan to a deep level, you should have deep, nei gong. I do agree that there is a differnce between the 2, but I do not obsess about it.

JB.

[Felipe Bidó]

People have mentioned that Li Laoneng created the, tuo xing (water lizard), this is not true, this is almost identical to Dai, she xing (snake).

Bro, he didn't create the movement (of course not), but he introduce the concept of wrapping as a new animal, Tuo, even if the movement has been present in different forms (Wrapping form, some Monkey movemens in some branches of XYLHQ, etc).

[edededed]

I think the movements themselves were quite different, but Dai family xinyiquan has 10 main animals (same as that as xinyiliuhequan) and 7 minor animals. The latter included tuo (alligator) and tai (some kind of bird ).

Also, note that some older branches of xingyiquan (mainly some Che branches, I think) use gongbu (i.e. hubu).