the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Been a long time since I posted. I'll note I don't practice a lot of Taijiquan (so take my words as an observer)

Personally. I'm very skeptical of a YCF style... I have never seen one that didn't have a in the linage of where it came from.. (e.g. a mother's uncle, a father's nephew etc etc ) all with very little historical presence other other than the person saying they got the true transmission. I'm even more skeptical of family styles (but that is for another thread)

Hao style (Wu Yuxiang ) is directly linked to YLC and that style mimics Wu style (Quan You) in form and function ...and Wu style is linked to Yang Pan-hou... & Yang Jianhou, Pan-hou's brother, that side of the family spawned YCF's family style. And that style mimics in form and function the previous two. Its' extremely Hard to argue against the logic those previous facts bring to the table (but people try) Furthering my opinion... Arts that where simplified where the arts that were tested and in the process they discarded the low % techniques. At one time those arts would have to have been tested or they would have faded from memory.

I also don't see a difference between the same style being practice with a big frame or small frame... splitting hairs.

People get caught up in stigma and dogma ...

The small frame is within the large frame
But the large frame is not within the small frame

Kong Bao Long wrote:Been a long time since I posted. I'll note I don't practice a lot of Taijiquan (so take my words as an observer)

Personally. I'm very skeptical of a YCF style... I have never seen one that didn't have a in the linage of where it came from.. (e.g. a mother's uncle, a father's nephew etc etc ) all with very little historical presence other other than the person saying they got the true transmission. I'm even more skeptical of family styles (but that is for another thread)

Hao style (Wu Yuxiang ) is directly linked to YLC and that style mimics Wu style (Quan You) in form and function ...and Wu style is linked to Yang Pan-hou... & Yang Jianhou, Pan-hou's brother, that side of the family spawned YCF's family style. And that style mimics in form and function the previous two. Its' extremely Hard to argue against the logic those previous facts bring to the table (but people try) Furthering my opinion... Arts that where simplified where the arts that were tested and in the process they discarded the low % techniques. At one time those arts would have to have been tested or they would have faded from memory.

People get caught up in stigma and dogma ...

Today, an art does not have to be tested but we must realize the competing forces at play when the Beijing 24shitaijiquan was created. Taijiquan was never popular, people had limited interest or no interest
so that left room for other voices to appear to play by the rules when they were really none but the private protocols were kept by those who followed tha status quo.
As an example Fu Zhongwen was the one who actually promoted taijiquan through the decades but somehow YCF got to usurp that leadership while invoking his Yang Luchan roots, whatever that may have been.

Comparing Fu Zhongwen and Yang Chengfu's style, they are not that different. A sde by side comparison shows that! In a recent observation, I stated that Yang Jun incorparated some old style Yang elements,
now seen in older Wu style (Yuxian) versions. A youtube version linked by dacheng shows a version of "Wave hands" that Yang Jun has remembered/seen/incorporated/borrowed/etc shows us that archaic
postural configuration (mostly) that few practice, can be made new again since the majority practice other versions and they have the capacity to invigorate new insights that have been left out and they can
reccharge interest from that viewpoint. Personally, it is meshes with psyche hence the interest in such a small postural placement and simple change to a commonality

The lesson is that we do our practice,, enjoy it and share what we share without malice but with refinement and grace. All is one and one is all Isn't that the Dao, or better yet, how it should be

I thought Fu Zhongwen was Yang Cheng Fu's student and claims to have taught the most accurate transmission of YCFs art, having added nothing of his own invention.

Kong Bao Long wrote:Been a long time since I posted. I'll note I don't practice a lot of Taijiquan (so take my words as an observer)

Personally. I'm very skeptical of a YCF style... I have never seen one that didn't have a in the linage of where it came from.. (e.g. a mother's uncle, a father's nephew etc etc ) all with very little historical presence other other than the person saying they got the true transmission. I'm even more skeptical of family styles (but that is for another thread)

Hao style (Wu Yuxiang ) is directly linked to YLC and that style mimics Wu style (Quan You) in form and function ...and Wu style is linked to Yang Pan-hou... & Yang Jianhou, Pan-hou's brother, that side of the family spawned YCF's family style. And that style mimics in form and function the previous two. Its' extremely Hard to argue against the logic those previous facts bring to the table (but people try) Furthering my opinion... Arts that where simplified where the arts that were tested and in the process they discarded the low % techniques. At one time those arts would have to have been tested or they would have faded from memory.

People get caught up in stigma and dogma ...

Today, an art does not have to be tested but we must realize the competing forces at play when the Beijing 24shitaijiquan was created. Taijiquan was never popular, people had limited interest or no interest
so that left room for other voices to appear to play by the rules when they were really none but the private protocols were kept by those who followed tha status quo.
As an example Fu Zhongwen was the one who actually promoted taijiquan through the decades but somehow YCF got to usurp that leadership while invoking his Yang Luchan roots, whatever that may have been.

Comparing Fu Zhongwen and Yang Chengfu's style, they are not that different. A sde by side comparison shows that! In a recent observation, I stated that Yang Jun incorparated some old style Yang elements,
now seen in older Wu style (Yuxian) versions. A youtube version linked by dacheng shows a version of "Wave hands" with the appearance of 'Brush knee" and a forward direction (diagonal) in a few places (not sure if it is just a repetition of that is actual sequence. (NOTE: WU Yuxian style is one style I never learned) so Yang Jun has remembered/seen/incorporated/borrowed/etc shows us that archaic
postural configuration (mostly) that few practice, can be made new again since the majority practice other versions and they have the capacity to invigorate new insights that have been left out and they can
reccharge interest from that viewpoint.

Thanks to dacheng!

see 0.35.0.45

Personally, it is meshes with psyche hence the interest in such a small postural placement and simple change to a commonality

The lesson is that we do our practice,, enjoy it and share what we share without malice but with refinement and grace. All is one and one is all Isn't that the Dao, or better yet, how it should be [/quote]

yeniseri wrote:As an example Fu Zhongwen was the one who actually promoted taijiquan through the decades but somehow YCF got to usurp that leadership while invoking his Yang Luchan roots, whatever that may have been.

Greetings Yeniseri,
Could you clear up what you are claiming?

Because Fu Zhongwen has repeatedly said he learned his Yang Taiji since childhood from Yang Chengfu.
And, that he (Fu) has "neither added nor taken away" (from Chengfu's Taijiquan Instructions)

So, are you saying that is not true he learned Taijiquan from Chengfu?

I have read that Fu Zhongwen got most of his instruction from Cui Yishi.
Though saying that, his performance of the form is quite different from Cui's.
Has anyone else heard of the Cui connection?

I have heard of Cui Yishi and he was one who was close to Yang Family hence his position to instruct those who were close, whether by blood or marriage

Trip wrote:So, are you saying that is not true he learned Taijiquan from Chengfu?

I am saying nothing of the sort. Fu ZHongwen had married into the Yang Family and Yang Chengfu was the last living lineage member and that helped consolidate Fu Zhongwen to found Yangnian Tai Chi Association.
FZW was the most senior compared to Yang Zhenduo, Yang SauChung and Yang Zhenji and the latter had to lay low due to the struggle session of the day so the lead was FZW.

So where does it go from FZW

wayne hansen wrote:So where does it go from FZW

My usual mantra is "Nothing to do or undo"! We choose as we choose and everybody seeks their own state of being, whatever that may be. That is the Dao

What I was asking was who caries on his lineage
I have seen one who claims to carry the mantle who is quite low in skill

What I was asking was who caries on his lineage
I have seen one who claims to carry the mantle who is quite low in skill

It makes no difference to me but since I read the narratives/stories/expose/etc about a specific lineage, that is my only key to learn more about x style!
I tend to prefer old days masters and even those have varying and unique ways of form expression! That is life. I have no skin in the game but I do play, at times.

When I read about peop0le like Cui Yishi, Li Yaxuan, and others I see Yang Chengfu's frame despite they even practicing with others Yang family blood relatives!
Having a varied background with information is always positive. QUite a few masters' end up being well known but it had nothing to do with skill but political and other
associations that 'inflated' their study and experience. Guān xì (关系) and how far it can take you

Kong Bao Long wrote:Personally. I'm very skeptical of a YCF style...

you mean YLC style? There is lots of video and writing about YCF form. There seems to be incredibly small evidence, if any, of YLC form.

observer

more than good enough. nobody knows the answer. just idle speculation mostly for fun.

Suppose Jon Jones is the UFC GOAT. But Suppose there were no videos or writing about him, except to say "man was the GOAT, he could do anything."

Then suppose his grandson taught a bunch of people "Jones Style" 80-90 years later. What would people then say about the original Jon Jones style? How lost would it be? Gracie Jiu Jitsu descended from Kano's Judo, and we (the larger MA community) seem to know a ton about those arts and what happened. It seems taijiquan was named for YLC, is very well known (in totally misunderstood ways, even by self-proclaimed experts), yet nobody knows anything about the GOAT for which it was named. Kinda hilarious and sad.

This guy is a dude

https://youtu.be/O7iDYfmPW1M