the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Trick wrote:bian can still mean whip as in leather-whip.

Steve James wrote:Whip as a noun can be stiff, flexible, or sectioned (stiff and flexible). Imo, as a a verb, it describes a sequential and circular action as opposed to a linear one. I.e., you can use a stick like a whip, but not the other way around --unless they are combined so that the whipping action produces a linear reaction.

In this context it doesn't matter what the word can mean. Chinese is a contextual language and the meaning of a word in its context becomes specific. The name clearly refers to a solid sword breaker. If you interpret it as a "whip-like" movement/strength, then your understanding of the jin is completely wrong.

Just note in my theory there is no hitting with the hooked hand
The hook is for another purpose
Those that passed on the whipping energy theory to me have a skill level that I have not seen elsewhere
So I will stick with their theory

The name clearly refers to a solid sword breaker. If you interpret it as a "whip-like" movement/strength, then your understanding of the jin is completely wrong.

Um, well you have me at a Chinese disadvantage. I learned calling the movement single whip. In fact, I'd never heard that it referred to a "solid sword breaker" in my life. But, my ignorance in this art is unlimited. Otoh, if you could point to the part in SW that is similar to sword-breaking, that'd be cool.

I guess you'd be referring to the front (left) hand at the end of the movement. My point was that it wasn't all of SW, but I'd still argue that the movement is circular -even if it were a solid stick. I also mentioned the term sequential as a quality of "whipping," and I think that's how the body works. Like sticks connected by joints, like a chain, or a sectioned staff, and I'd say whip- but I'm not married to the term. It's just a description. Hey, if I said something you can't see or test for yourself, ignore it.

Afa the right hand and the hook (or beak). If applied as a hook, it's a hook. In General Qi's manual, looking carefully, the hand isn't (as?) hooked. However, imo, the idea of using a hook would be indicated by the application. Can you strike with the hooked hand? If the idea is to strike, then yeah -depending on where and how. Otoh, if the idea is to hook, then that's how it's used (if only to prepare a return strike)? Hmm, haven't most people tried that in practice sparring? I.e. a hook to an almost simultaneous strike?

But, the hook hand doesn't have to be restricted to the SW anymore than a punch be restricted to step forward parry downward punch. To me, that's simplistic and at the same time messy. The right tool for the right job.

For want of a better word look at the
Facia/Tendon/Meridian path from the left hand to the right hand
Then get someone to do a chinna on the hooked hand then the left palm
Feel the path then look at how the path is formed
Reverse engineer the path

I'm not sure what you mean. As Doc pointed out, in Wu/Hao and Sun there isn't a hooked hand in SW. Someone who studies one or the other could explain why, and perhaps the different effects.

Steve James wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. As Doc pointed out, in Wu/Hao and Sun there isn't a hooked hand in SW. Someone who studies one or the other could explain why, and perhaps the different effects.

Where did he point that out?

It may be insightful to some practitioners of the Yang, Wu and Chen styles to focus on the rear hand when performing Single Whip, like the Wu Hao and Sun styles do, envisioning the hooked hand executing a quick, flexible whipping strike with the back of the wrist, as one example, rather than always focusing on the open front hand. This creates an entirely different energy dynamic which can be very interesting

I have never studied Hao but I do know it works on a totally different theory and that theory is passed on to its prodigney Sun
I do know the son of Sun FU reverted to the hooked hand
It also uses Breaking Wave action in many parts of the form utalising whipping energy

BruceP wrote:

Steve James wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. As Doc pointed out, in Wu/Hao and Sun there isn't a hooked hand in SW. Someone who studies one or the other could explain why, and perhaps the different effects.

Where did he point that out?

It may be insightful to some practitioners of the Yang, Wu and Chen styles to focus on the rear hand when performing Single Whip, like the Wu Hao and Sun styles do, envisioning the hooked hand executing a quick, flexible whipping strike with the back of the wrist, as one example, rather than always focusing on the open front hand. This creates an entirely different energy dynamic which can be very interesting

I'm sure he knew that Sun style used the hands differently. Anyway, I could be mistaken about what he meant.

Bao wrote:In this context it doesn't matter what the word can mean. Chinese is a contextual language and the meaning of a word in its context becomes specific. The name clearly refers to a solid sword breaker. If you interpret it as a "whip-like" movement/strength, then your understanding of the jin is completely wrong.

Have you ever used a mace, truncheon, or sword-breaker? You "snap" them, because they bounce when they hit something, and you want to take advantage of that to flow into your next strike. You also have to think about recovery, as it's too slow to recover if you miss when you take a heavy swing. That's one reason why scenes like the one from Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon don't make good references. Good stories, but not good references. The body mechanics for a sword-breaker are much more whip-like than they are like a baseball bat or sledge hammer.

I should mention I am talking about whipping energy in the body
Not the hand in isolation
If you want to know about bounce in weapons go to FMA
It is the hardest thing I have to teach people about weapons to borrow the bounce
The tai chi two man pole form is all about that
When talking about differing shapes in the left hand in SW
I give a big Thumbs Up to Wu Tu Nan in his fast form
Now there is a subject for conversation

One of the things that set me on this track was noticing how if you were to consider holding a stick or bian in your right hand the mechanics of the movement lend themselves readily to a number of short sword techniques.

Moulinet to reverse moulinet with the bounce, as an example. Or flat snap to reverse moulinet.

If you've dealt with a weapon of actual weight you'll know that it's nothing to do with the "hand in isolation", you would last about two seconds trying to swing an 8 lb weapon around with your arm and there is no way to make it "bounce" of it's own accord with that sort of weight. You have to ride the tiny bit of rebound and add your hips in the opposite direction as your wrist follows.

The lighter Filipino weapons would just ride their own bounce but you're not getting that out of a heavier weapon. If somebody tried to block in a way that would enable that technique it would likely crush whatever they were blocking with.

The spiral in the "hook hand' starts at the feet.

People are talking about the punch to the right and then punch to the left like...that isn't the point.

The waist turn and the weight shifts make this one of the most powerful movements in the form, the arms are spreading away from each other as a single unit, but all of that is there in an invisible circle, right?

Just so many things can come out of it, an amazing posture.

Steve James wrote:

BruceP wrote:

Steve James wrote:I'm not sure what you mean. As Doc pointed out, in Wu/Hao and Sun there isn't a hooked hand in SW. Someone who studies one or the other could explain why, and perhaps the different effects.

Where did he point that out?

It may be insightful to some practitioners of the Yang, Wu and Chen styles to focus on the rear hand when performing Single Whip, like the Wu Hao and Sun styles do, envisioning the hooked hand executing a quick, flexible whipping strike with the back of the wrist, as one example, rather than always focusing on the open front hand. This creates an entirely different energy dynamic which can be very interesting

I'm sure he knew that Sun style used the hands differently. Anyway, I could be mistaken about what he meant.

Thanks, Steve. Having learned both Sun TCC and Wu Hao TCC, I know that these styles perform the Single Whip with a focus on the open rear hand, and have different suggested martial applications for this form posture.

Master Sun told his students that the most skilled practitioners of these boxing arts have probably only realized 10-15% of the possible applications, and that he himself continued to discover new possibilities even after a lifetime of previous training. Why would our training experience be any different? Thus, whatever we can envision and implement as a practical, effective fighting method is fair game.

Doc Stier wrote:Master Sun told his students that the most skilled practitioners of these boxing arts have probably only realized 10-15% of the possible applications, and that he himself continued to discover new possibilities even after a lifetime of previous training. Why would our training experience be any different?

1. Someone created a form. You try to figure out what applications are in that form.
2. You understand a certain application. You create a drill (or short form) to train that application.

I believe method 2 is better than method 1.

SW- the left side make use of shoulder, elbow and hand......heck, even leg skill is involved, quite obvious in Chen style, more ”hidden” in Yang style and other.

most seem to be focusing entirely on what is commonly seen as the end position of SW. imagining the left palm to be a crushing swordbreaker...well, thats some serious imagination.

as shoulder, elbow and hand are involved one can see that as whip like segments, if one prefer the mace/swordbreaker version then the ”bounce” momentum theory might fit

I think the sword breaker contingent are saying it’s the right hand
Chen appears to be whipping energy here
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