the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

So if you learn boxing from Mike Tyson you learn old man boxing

robert wrote:

origami_itto wrote:I think it's easiest to see in ward off right (using the movement name to be clear about the form vs the energy), the first part of grasp sparrow's tail.

That seems overly complex if we're discussing the back leg. Push seems simpler. Am I wrong? I suspect there's a reason FZW chose push to discuss the basic idea of jin. If we discuss push.

I think it's simpler in execution than description. They're very similar, ward off has more of the horizontal rotation while push is more of a vertical rotation. The hips are already square in push so harder to see the spirals, IMHO. Both hips are moving together forwards instead of in opposite directions relative to the waist.
It's entirely possible that they're using the legs differently there. One pushing the vertical ball forward and the other rolling the horizontal ball forward.

origami_itto wrote:So from the back we shift (pour?) the weight to the front, ...

Talking about weight shifts there are a couple ways to look at it. One is to sink into the leg we're moving too, and another is to push off the leg were moving from. In reality we want to do both. Sinking into the leg we're moving too is yin and is closing (he), while pushing off the leg we're moving from is yang and is opening (kai). You can emphasize either. To relax and flow I often think of sinking, sinking, sinking. Even though I'm sinking there is still some yang in the yin, I'm aware the other leg is opening.

I'm working with sinking down to center then settling up on the front leg.
In both ward off and push, I believe the weight is shifting to the front leg and the kwa is pushing through the rear leg Same like you say but not pushing with the leg, pushing through the leg and when straight not completely straight.

I just happened to have the red book sitting here....
Dong Ying Jie


Dong Hu Ling


In other postures...

Like I know people say this photo of Yang Cheng Fu is "more martial" than his older pictures but to me it looks pretty weak.



Here are some comparisons that I swear i didn't realize was all Dong till I clicked it. There are some differences to say the least. look at the toes.

http://www.chipellis.com/Pictures/compa ... e-pics.htm

origami_itto wrote:Also, not the biggest fan of FZW.

I like his description of jin in his book, I like the interviews I've read with him, and his family seems pretty good.

Here's a video of Yang Jun teaching GST, push is 11:30 to 12:08. The body closes (he) as the weight shifts back and opens (kai) as the weight shifts forward.

Ah but can't see his leg.
FZW's form just looks ugly to me, heavy steps, kind of dead looking. His book is not bad.

origami_itto wrote:I'm working with sinking down to center then settling up on the front leg.
In both ward off and push, I believe the weight is shifting to the front leg and the kwa is pushing through the rear leg Same like you say but not pushing with the leg, pushing through the leg and when straight not completely straight.

When you write the kwa is pushing through the rear leg are you saying that you don't bend and extend the legs? You just turn the hips (not the kuas, the kuas rotate the legs) so the pelvic girdle is acting like a cam? If that's the case, what about the arms? In push the arms clearly bend and extend. If you bend and extend the arms, why not the legs?

Hollows and Projections

robert wrote:

origami_itto wrote:I'm working with sinking down to center then settling up on the front leg.
In both ward off and push, I believe the weight is shifting to the front leg and the kwa is pushing through the rear leg Same like you say but not pushing with the leg, pushing through the leg and when straight not completely straight.

When you write the kwa is pushing through the rear leg are you saying that you don't bend and extend the legs? You just turn the hips (not the kuas, the kuas rotate the legs) so the pelvic girdle is acting like a cam? If that's the case, what about the arms? In push the arms clearly bend and extend. If you bend and extend the arms, why not the legs?

It's not that they don't extend, it's that they don't straighten. And not really like a cam because there all of the joints are passive. What I mean is that it's not the thigh straightening the knee that makes things move, it's the upper thigh moving in the hip joint pushing back that straightens the leg, but not completely straight.

origami_itto wrote:It's not that they don't extend, it's that they don't straighten. And not really like a cam because there all of the joints are passive. What I mean is that it's not the thigh straightening the knee that makes things move, it's the upper thigh moving in the hip joint pushing back that straightens the leg, but not completely straight.

OK. When I say straighten, I mean straighter than they were, not completely straight. The limbs open and close, bend and extend. The yao/dantian is the ruler so when I say the legs straighten it's driven by the yao/dantian, not by the legs.

氣如車輪。腰如車軸。
Qi is like a wheel. Yao is like an axle.

Essentials of Playing Hands - Part 3.