What is the point of silk reeling - to you - ?

[jbb73]

So, Mike Sigman raised an interesting point in his comments on my last post on silk reeling – “Silkreeling is about developing the elastic connections of the body.”

Mike Sigman is still commenting others?
And others still listening to Mike Sigman?
OmG!

[cloudz]

That whole mnemonic classics learning is interesting. The CTH lineage has it too.

Two circles, I take it you are Practical method Chen going by the video you posted. I know his school does a fair bit competition wise and he shows nice techniques etc.

Personally I've always found his videos hard to follow in some ways, the jargon and so on. But I do like visuals of such things. Do you have some good examples of either techniques demonstrated according to your kind of explanation. Competition ones from your school to see and compare in real time and against resistance ?

Here is an intro into Spiral Body from Martial Body training for anyone interested.

I'm probably going to regret posting this....given my history with the hardcore Brexit headbanger, but anyway, YOLO, right?

I had to stop watching that video half way through because I I just don't agree with what he's saying. Each to their own though, so I'm not out to convince anyone of anything.

Personally, I don't think spiral movement is the 'apex' of human movement, and that we find it 'easy' to move in straight lines. That's coming from the wrong place.

Like BruceP says with his use of everyday actions, like throwing a snowball, as teaching moments, (I may be misquoting him so appologies, but that's what I think he's saying) Spiral movement is the way a human moves naturally if we stop interfering with it. Kids move this way naturally. Adults can end up in very robotic styles of movement, but usually it has to be trained in to be like that... if you just pick something up, like a cup of tea, and move it to your mouth, the whole action is spiral. To make it linear you'd have to really try hard. And you'd probably spill your tea.

Also, in jiujitsu everybody moves in spirals and we don't need to separately train spiral movement, it just happens because it's natural. I filmed this the other day after class because somebody asked a question about it, but look at all the spirals going on in the movement - it's the way the human body moves naturally.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cv_5zf8uHsd/

You don't need to learn spiral movement, you need to unlearn whatever it is that's in the way of spiral movement.


Anyway, back to your regular programming...

I don't disagree completely with your idea there. but I think there is more to it if you want to use it in martial arts - it's a layered approach that conditions the body for certain things. If we take your natural idea further - none of these things need training.. heaviness, elastic etc. to improve on them. So why does anyone bother at all with tcc for example ? Why do we bother with connection or elasticity - it's true you can have them 'naturally' without any specific training. You can be strong as well without specific training like a kettlebell or similar, but stronger in certain ways with it and so on.

So I think people noticed these things and thought how can we make the most of them. strengthen them with specific body training

Towards the end Chris dose some technique with the idea of spiral movement. The more you train towards specific outcomes from the ground up. The stronger and more effective they can be perhaps, or get you to a certain destination quicker at least. This use of spiral in techniques just doesn't work as well without the body work. I mean all of it - the movement skill or motor control, the improvement of qualities and attributes, stronger aspects of the physical body itself.

I think the training works somewhat, whether it's discrete exercise or something like taiji form that develops these things. I think I have felt the difference.
Otherwise why are we here even discussing it. Natural you say? hmm

Use it on an untrained guy. who's "natural"; you or him?
or someone a bit further behind in training/ experience.

YMMV of course. Having worked with mma people, kung fu people. bjj people, judo and wrestling people. there's a bit of an edge to it. Nothing mesmerising, nothing that can replace all the other work that goes into these things. But something.

He starts getting into the spiral body layer around 3.00m, but worth watching for the beginning to get the idea of how it's not really separate.. animals don't train for example, so perhaps any training to improve physical and or mental performance is actually Unnatural anyways ?

No doubt Chris could give better answers than me about this training. My wider point is that the training is no different; we really are not out here doing wildly different thing in CIMA. So I may as well ask you what does it give you over and above what you can do "naturally". There is a difference in targeting elasticity to spiralling or heaviness etc.. yes, no, maybe ?

Have we all just been sold a pup .. would mine and yours time be better spent elsewhere. More Yoga maybe?

[twocircles13]

That whole mnemonic classics learning is interesting. The CTH lineage has it too.

I think it is interesting too. I really enjoy the Classics. I’m sorry I don’t recognize the CTH initials.

Two circles, I take it you are Practical method Chen going by the video you posted. I know his school does a fair bit competition wise and he shows nice techniques etc.

Yes, Chen Zhonghua is my teacher. His students are from a wide variety of backgrounds some of whom compete in various ways. I also think his skill set is nice and desirable.

Personally I've always found his videos hard to follow in some ways, the jargon and so on. But I do like visuals of such things.

I understand that. His teaching is very organic. By that, I mean he teaches to those in the room to meet their needs and what they need to learn next. Students are at a variety of levels, experience, and motivations. He does a really good job of delivering something for everyone, if you are in the room. However, this can be very confusing on video. You don’t know what came before or after, so you have no context. Sometimes, he sees students are processing information, or perhaps they are just fatigued, he may go off on some seemingly tangential explanation or change subject while they process or recover. That is also very confusing on video.

I have often suggested turning off the sound, not just for his videos but for all martial art videos, and just watch what is happening. Of course, you need to get the gist, so you know when he is saying, “Don’t do it this way. This is the right way to do it.”

Do you have some good examples of either techniques demonstrated according to your kind of explanation.

In the first segment, he is kind of talking about a precursor to creating the cliff. In the second segment, “Don’t move, Spin,” Ronnie Yee initially shows “enticing.” This is "Enticing to the Edge of a Cliff.” I think I called it “Bringing.” Enticing is the better word. I may go back and change it. He breaks his partner’s structure more with arm and body rotation than stepping. He shows a number of other skills in this video too.

Ronnie is Chen Zhonghua’s first disciple. He is Canadian-born and only spoke English and Cantonese when they met. Zhonghua spoke Mandarin and only basic English, so he couldn’t explain things. Ronnie and other early students in Regina learned mostly by feel, so sometimes, Ronnie’s explanations are a little different. This offers a second perspective. His actions are very clear too, if you want to turn off the sound and just watch. This classs also seems to be all close to the same basic level, so he keeps things pretty basic.

Competition ones from your school to see and compare in real time and against resistance ?

There are so many videos. It’s hard to keep up. I didn’t see anything right off. There is this montage under the label, "Entice your opponent to the cliff,” but it mostly show the opponent falling off the cliff. If you watch it frame-by-frame, you might see something.



This is not a technique. It is a skill, and a fairly basic one. It is within a lot of more complicated actions. It is subtle and internal so it is really hard to see, unless you know how to do it and know what to look for. As I mentioned earlier, you can "Entice a person to the edge of a cliff" and keep them on that edge for minutes. All the time, they are doing really great things and trying to figure out how you are countering them all.

Here is an intro into Spiral Body from Martial Body training for anyone interested.

So, yes, the couple of drills he shows at the end are similar to basic drills or explanations we use. It is just an introduction. It would be interesting to see where he goes with the training. I, like Graham, think he sells the need to do “spiral” training a little hard, but what he shows is legit.

While I have put an emphasis on rotation here, please do not think that I am claiming any kind of monopoly on this, not for me, my branch, nor my style, quite the opposite. I think all taijiquan was based on rotation at one time. Rotation creates spirals, circles, arcs, and so on. As students mimicked the circles and arcs but left out the rotation, they gradually lost the essence of the art. If we restore it, I believe our arts will find new life.

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That whole mnemonic classics learning is interesting. The CTH lineage has it too.

I think it is interesting too. I really enjoy the Classics. I’m sorry I don’t recognize the CTH initials.

Sure, my bad

Cheng Ting Hung, a Hong Kong Branch of Wu style.
Thanks for the clips and further explanations on silk reeling movements.. or however it's framed..

I think training it works for something.. not sure Graham does though

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it's like why does a boxer keep throwing his punch, why does a wrestler keep sprawling. why does a dancer keep dancing..
seems like the same question

why does a kung fu guy keep doing kung fu

spiral movement, body skill (of movement) is used in chin na and forms of Chinese wrestling quite a lot in my book.
power(strength actually) and skill combined

I remember a clip of Markus Brinkman I think I posted last summer, it showed very nicely what the point is.

[GrahamB]

I think I, by accident, managed to somehow say something a little bit profound last time, so I'm loathed to say anything else now, as it obviously won't be as good and will mess it up what I said last time - lol.

However......as a continuum of that last post... and to get back to the OP of this thread - what is the point of silkreeling? - if spiral movement is our natural movement, then the point of silk reeling exercises isn't to learn how to do spiral movement, they just use spiral movement because that is how our body naturally moves. The point is to develop that elastic connection, because that has to be worked at.

But that's one point of view. I think this thread has provided others, which was its point. Thanks all.

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Well kung fu movement certainly trains elasticity, no arguments there from anyone I guess.
Is kung fu that profound

may be

points of view as you say.

nice one Graham
it's all puzzle pieces end of the day

how people put their puzzle together is what works for them
the rest is for the kwoon, dojo. gym etc.

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an article about natural movement patterns
https://www.movnat.com/doable-movements/

an article about elasticity training
https://www.runbritain.com/training/run ... ork%20well.

couple point here.. from this

1. spiral movements of the body are not really moving towards natural movement patterns for humans, if anything they move in a different direction..

2. training for elasticity involves load and release dynamics wherever targeted; it's not that close to spiral motions with the body either.

I think there is more targeted stuff in Kung fu systems for sure.

to remove obstacles towards natural movement; mobility exercises are a good way to go. This involves range of motion and flexibility training.

Really not wishing to burst anyone's bubble here.

It's all good. It's your "puzzle".. thanks Applodog

If anything a kung fu way of moving isn't particularly natural; just watch any KF movie! lol
mma athletes, just for example, move much more naturally.

Monkey kung fu possibly an exception regards locomotive and natural movement patterns
Not too sure

Zirran-men may be interesting in the sense it's Natural Boxing.. Maybe Yiquan can fit that kind of non form based paradigm, tai chi etc.. kinf of depends your views on how you want to use them. Moving in certain stances for example, isn't something that's natural and why some KF people struggle to carry their form paradigms into real time fighting. It can be done I guess, but I'm not sure that's the point of training like that, others may disagree on this point. Certainly it can come into play without the exaggeration of some KF forms

Not that it matters that much.. Move the way works for you best, would be my advice.
And fit the exercise movement patterns that you think fit best with your training goals.

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Regards "elastic connections"

maybe this is more about the development of connective tissues mostly; what I would classify as a strengthening/ conditioning work.

tendons, ligaments, fascia etc.

again lot's of types or training can do this, not just KF, but there's really good stuff in KF systems for this
the 24 "neigong" I practice from CTH has good exercises for this combined with elasticity training, for example.. but I wouldn't call them "silk reeling" specifically.

Often combined with Fa jin. (release of force). The classic store and release idea basically.
Limb rotation is sometimes involved as that creates greater loading. though the basics of "pulling the bow" doesn't necessarily need it.

Twisting and winding motions etc are good for fascia training I believe.

Others mileage may vary of course. Some good people in KF I know of, don't really believe in it, but I think some research now does point towards positive results backed by sports science for it (KF exercises for fascia development and their contribution to performance.)

I think one was posted not long ago on The Fajin Project (FB)

[GrahamB]

I must be stupid because I don't understand how you got to those conclusions from those articles? The word "spiral" doesn't appear in either, and I don't think the "elastic strength" talked about in the second one has any connection to the elastic connection you are seeking to create in silk reeling exercises?

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I must be stupid because I don't understand how you got to those conclusions from those articles? The word "spiral" doesn't appear in either,

Well maybe this isn't obvious.. But I'm not sure why you would expect that word to appear.
Because it doesn't have very much to do with either..

Ok, I will try to explain a bit more what I mean. But I seem to be losing my post each time I go back for quotes and stuff.. so this like my third attempt. But yea, it's not that I think it isn't natural to move that way in some specific circumstances. Say you use a screwdriver, or say wax a car (karate kid lol)

But I guess whether they have the rest of the components involved in good silk reeling is debatable.

here is a common definition of natural movement from Google:

Natural movements are the full range of movements the human body has always needed for survival. As our daily environments become safer and humans become more sedentary there is a greater need for us to reclaim many of the movements we have lost as a result of this lifestyle.

Am saying that Silk reeling, particularly the way Practical method and Chen Yu do it is quite intricate and needs some teaching to it. Natural movement patterns are basic things we kind of all do a lot more and are considered more fundamental to natural human movement patterns. If you look at something like Bagua; Who moves like that in the course of their life without being taught to do so?

So some of your statements that are used as premises aren't particularly good to use as a basis for your conclusions.. I would think.

here are some of the things you said for example

we find it 'easy' to move in straight lines. That's coming from the wrong place.

I think what Chris said is fairly true in the sense what are considered as natural movement patterns confirm it - the examples much more linear based. So we go from basic linear (more natural and fundamental movement patterns) to more complex using circles and rotations (less natural). Easy in the sense that we don’t really need teaching to do them. Common everyday examples are easy to learn, Most martial techniques in Chin na for example are more difficult in terms of motor skill and control than a simple 'wax off' for example. Maybe we can do basic movement better like the form we use in squatting down. They are ones that we all do over the course of our lives from a young age. It’s how we learn to move from baby monkeys. Crawl, squat jump, walk run and so on. Later movements are more complex. They are more learned and require greater motor control from us rather than ‘coming naturally’.

you mentioned throwing a snow ball, what’s spiral about that? It’s elastic sure. So yea Elasticity is more natural than spiral I would say. Jumping is elastic, but no spiral action there I think.

Here are some other quotes from you.

GrahamB wrote:
...it's the way the human body moves naturally.

You don't need to learn spiral movement, you need to unlearn whatever it is that's in the way of spiral movement.


QFT 

As I said, there may be ‘stuff in the way’; but that stuff applies to all movement. Basic and natural movement patterns of the kind that were in the article I provided. The way to get whatever is in the way out the way is through Mobility training. Silk reeling is a mobility exercise (Range of Motion) for the shoulders for example. That’s not ‘in the way’, that’s part of it. So you would keep that, not get rid (unlearn).

if you just pick something up, like a cup of tea, and move it to your mouth, the whole action is spiral. To make it linear you'd have to really try hard. And you'd probably spill your tea.

Really mate?
Spiral?

there is quite limited rotation there. It’ s a bit of a circle, not much (I just tried it at the table I’m sat on), hardly any rotation of limbs at all. How close is that to your silk reeling really. Come on. It’s more linear. If that is what you might use to train for some techniques. Well I don’t really know what to add to that.

Also, in jiujitsu everybody moves in spirals and we don't need to separately train spiral movement, it just happens because it's natural

Ok, if I come to your place as a noob; I won’t need to be taught techniques? I mean moving around in the sense of scrambling, positions maybe not so much. But if go somewhere to learn those natural movements. That’s not learning something new that’s doing stuff we have grown up doing all our lives.

Certainly many chin na, certain grappling and wrestling techniques have them etc.
It's was kind of my point earlier that that was a good reason to create and use supplemental training for it like silk reeling.. or movement training that included that kind of movement. Perhaps wrestling is the most natural form of play fighting and lot's animals play fight. Kids maybe more so in the past. But I think in most cases these days, kids don't wrestle that much. I remember doing so for a while, with my cousins of similar age and maybe father and sons do it. But it's not so much technique driven in the way BJJ or Chi na is. But yea it's not really part of survival and much less common than it may have been. I don't expect we tried to kill each other with wrestling or thought it would help up if a dangerous animal tried to eat us for lunch. But who really knows, I don't know the history of such things.

I got what you are saying.. which is why I initially agreed that I’m not against it some fighting movements and circular movements being thought of as natural per se.. But there are a group that is much more natural and fundamental to us and mostly pretty linear in nature. The way it’s used in arts like Bagua is pretty complex movement requiring new motor skills and learning for most people I would think. You don’t really rock up to Tai chi classes and bagua classes having moved in those way all your life. Whether it’s the Body Method or the Techniques. Of course Body Method ideas isn’t used as much in BJJ but it’s there in techniques and people will take time to get them right. Say compared to Squatting down etc.

So we are moving away from natural, not towards it.

but look at all the spirals going on in the movement - it's the way the human body moves naturally.

I can understand why you might think it’s natural. I mean it isn’t unnatural per se. which is why I say it's "moving away" from natural.. You can learn iyour bjj techniques and chin na and other stand up grappling etc and after some practice it will come naturally. Just like you learned picking up your tea, turning your steering wheel, wiping windows, using a screwdriver etc.

Throwing a punch and striking is more natural and linear, sprinting is more natural, linear movement like crawling, walking, sitting, lifting a box and climbing is more natural for us. Things that get in the way of movement get in the way of these things first and these are things we use more fundamentally in every day mobility - range of motion, flexibility.

So now on to the second part about elasticity.

Pulling the Bow is about the spine primarily, it is the main bow, then you have the arms. The legs too, but those example cover that.

The main one in CMA is found in the Badua jin exercise for example and it involves no circles and rotation at all really. Though it certainly can be layered in to forms.

Drawing the Bow is @ around 3 minutes.



This is one I got to sometimes. I use brush knee from a Wu style that I like for it. This is very linear.. As I mentioned I have a fair few in the 24 Neigong I practice. Some do have circular motion and rotation. the extra movement does add extra load, but for striking you don’t really want it in your movement. because of telegraphing. Grappling is different. in that you use the loading in a different way.. some techniques you may not release but you certainly could in others. Depends on a few factors.

So the point here is that, yes whilst it’s not really applied much in the upper body in those examples the same concept of load and release of elastic tension is the same. And in CMA it’s pretty big deal. I never thought of the classic silk reeling as being much benefit to it compared to other exercises that use that stretch load a lot more.

I don't think the "elastic strength" talked about in the second one has any connection to the elastic connection you are seeking to create in silk reeling exercises?

Well you made that connection not me.. That elasticity training is “the point” of silk reeling. I am saying not really, though it depends how you do it - It could do. Maybe show me an example ?

Phew that was a lot of effort !
Hope it makes sense.

[GrahamB]

George,

Could you work out what it is you're trying to say, and then write it in a sentence, or two, like you're saying it to a child? - just keep it that simple.

I'm a big fan of the Freynman technique.

I stand by all the things I've said, and don't want to just repeat them, so don't know what else to say...

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I don't know the Freynman technique. will look it up soon thought eh.
But, I'm not a fan of "nutshells"..

A couple sentences won't cut it but I will try to reduce..

Better just to train I guess.
see improvement and that's it.

Have fun, back soon.

[cloudz]

I'll try something bitesized.

for example..

throwing a good punch can have a spiral.. if you turn your fist over. If you have good body mechanics, good kinetic motion from the feet up or from the centre out. This is not like throwing a ball.

untrained people don't throw good punches naturally. just watch youtube videos of them and it's obvious. they may well do it like throwing balls.
If that's what you are after with natural, then cool, you do that.

you said silk reeling is about elasticity. It really isn't. You and Mike are wrong about that, sorry to break it you.
the exercise I showed you from the baduan jin is about elasticity and it's not silk reeling.

you also seemed to have some profound epiphany about 'natural movement'. People don't really do silk reeling as taught in TCMA naturally. If you can't be asked with why. Then carry on believing stuff that isn't true.

I'm now curious to see this elasticity in your clip, based on your idea of spiral motion in BJJ.
Should be interesting.

Not sure it'll demonstrate what you said is right.. or worth standing by.

this sounds much more blunt of course, and maybe I just shouldn't bother trying to avoid that in future
anyway
happy training.

better?

[cloudz]

And others still listening to Mike Sigman?
OmG!

Only seems to be Graham, but I never saw the attraction either
maybe the rest keep it a secret.