the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

chicagoTaiJi wrote:qi (氣) is a generic word which applies to many different things. Like "energy". No point in arguing about any of this.

It means different things in different systems or contexts...

For example: 天氣 （heaven/sky qi) is how you say "weather" in chinese

In medical terminology "qi" is also contextual, it could refer to a specific organ, system, or the combined systems as a whole.

That is why this argument could continue ad nauseum and still never get anywhere...

I agree with everything you wrote. But would like to ask the question: why did the people in the so called pre-scientific era call the weather "heaven qi" ?
IMO there are two different categories of Qi: gas/fluid related physical phenomena and vitality/energy related phenomena. But force and qi are definately not the same thing. That was my point.

CD

mixjourneyman wrote:He said to me that he prefers taiji because it has the highest level principles.
That does not take any validity away from bagua or xingyi, but taiji is just way more complex and profound of an art.

My teacher says the same thing, actually my teacher has a lot of the same views your teacher has.

(I was going to mention that about high level principles too but I didn't want to sound like a taiji snob.)

CaliG wrote:

mixjourneyman wrote:He said to me that he prefers taiji because it has the highest level principles.
That does not take any validity away from bagua or xingyi, but taiji is just way more complex and profound of an art.

My teacher says the same thing, actually my teacher has a lot of the same views your teacher has.

(I was going to mention that about high level principles too but I didn't want to sound like a taiji snob.)

From what I've seen of Mr.Shen Tiegen, he definitely has the goods, so I'm not surprised that they share similar views.

ps. I watched the vid where he picks you up above his head in ph the other day
Just awesome!

Taiji has the highest level of "theory" but least number of practitioners who can emobdy that theory.

But force and qi are definately not the same thing.

Nobody said it was.

C.J.Wang wrote:Taiji has the highest level of "theory" but least number of practitioners who can emobdy that theory.

Thats why I always joke around with taiji guys.
Its the hardest art to use in real time I think.
Maybe out of any martial art extant.

It's not any harder to "use" than the others -- it's just harder to get to the point where you actually know it well enough to begin to be able to use it in the first place. It needs to "become you" (or you need to "become it", or both), and then "settle in"... And only then you can say you "use" it. And at that point you're not using is just to fight, -- it's your life.

That place is different for everyone and I don't think every practitioner can actually get there -- and that's true for all other arts, internal or not, and martial or not. Just like not every music student will become a famous performer and not everyone who trains boxing will become a champion.

It's all good, -- just practice what you love, put your soul into it, and enjoy the process.

mixjourneyman wrote:

CaliG wrote:

mixjourneyman wrote:He said to me that he prefers taiji because it has the highest level principles.
That does not take any validity away from bagua or xingyi, but taiji is just way more complex and profound of an art.

My teacher says the same thing, actually my teacher has a lot of the same views your teacher has.

(I was going to mention that about high level principles too but I didn't want to sound like a taiji snob.)

From what I've seen of Mr.Shen Tiegen, he definitely has the goods, so I'm not surprised that they share similar views.

ps. I watched the vid where he picks you up above his head in ph the other day
Just awesome!

Thanks I've been watching your guys' videos too. Solid stuff.

Yeah I've definitely noticed that a lot of these teachers who really want their students to "get it" have very similiar views.

I hope you don't mind but posted this on the other board too.

Good times,

G

C.J.Wang wrote:Taiji has the highest level of "theory" but least number of practitioners who can emobdy that theory.

That depends on the teacher.

I like the way Hai Yang breaks down the different levels.

He says something along the lines that striking and defending is the beginning level.

Throwing someone is the intermediate level and controlling someone's body is the highest level.

I think what happens is a lot of TJQ players aim their training straight at the highest level and focus on push hands, which is fine since it takes the longest to develop but you also need the fundamentals of striking and grappling if you want the complete package, some teachers teach that and some don't.

I also like how Yang Hai points out that TJQ attacks, that's something I rarely hear outside of China.

Speaking of taiji attacking, if your ever in Montreal, you totally gotta come down to the school and push hands with him.
I can't lay a finger on him (not surprisingly), or even on his good students.
They have some really nice ph skills there.

xingyijuan wrote:

But force and qi are definately not the same thing.

Nobody said it was.

Frank did And I remembered exactly that. But I watched the passage again and found that Yang Hai didn't say it like that. He said that it's a kind of "internal force". That's very open to interpretation. And with the little bit of additional background information about him you gave, I don't think that he meant it in the way I originally thought of.

CD

Aw Frank! Why did you?

That's the problem with 'Qi', it is large and vague, it is prone to interpretations.

Taijiquan doesn't need to become you, nor do you need to become it. You do need to practice, but if you understand the skill you should be able to turn it on or off. Taijiquan is not a panacea or a religion or a lifestyle. It's a martial art. Don't listen to that ex-kyokushin hippy in Atlanta

xingyijuan wrote:Aw Frank! Why did you?

That's the problem with 'Qi', it is large and vague, it is prone to interpretations.

I know man, what a terrible mistake I made! Making oversimplifications about the definition of qi, that's just unforgivable.
So... mea culpa and let's avoid sending this to BTDT because I said something stupid.


Damn qi.

Trying to move on to something else: Mix and Juan, Yang Hai says in his interview that he prefers his student to have a main art before moving on to the others. Are there many people in your school who practice more than one art? Is it mostly xingyi guys learning bagua or do some taiji guys crosstrain also?

mixjourneyman wrote:Speaking of taiji attacking, if your ever in Montreal, you totally gotta come down to the school and push hands with him.
I can't lay a finger on him (not surprisingly), or even on his good students.
They have some really nice ph skills there.

I'd like to come by...but the commute's a bitch!