the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

If you're looking at a form now to make the point that that's how it looked a thousand years ago, well, you're just making a fool of yourself.

In my learning of traditional IMA styles, the term 'liuhe' was typically used in reference to uniting and harmonizing the 'six directions' of movement, namely forward and backward, leftward and rightward, upward and downward.

Doc Stier wrote:In my learning of traditional IMA styles, the term 'liuhe' was typically used in reference to 'six directions' of movement, namely forward and backward, leftward and rightward, upward and downward.

Exactly. That is the typical use of "liuhe" in Chinese martal arts in general.

I don't know a single martial art that has "liu he" in the title that isn't referring to 6 harmonies. In English people translate it as "six harmony praying mantis", or "six harmony spear", or "six harmony boxing".

The 6 harmonies are in the 10 Thesis of Yeu Fei, which are really old, and then later got put into various writings:

"1750 that a famous master called Dai Long Bang captured from different classic texts the right way to practice the basic tenets from martial arts theories at the time. His texts included a short study of what is known as “the six harmonies”." https://wingchunjourney.co.uk/home/the- ... harmonies/

Not many martial arts existed before 1750...

Can you show me some writings where 'liu he' means 6 directions in "traditional IMA styles"?

I tell a lie - I've found one reference to "six directions boxing" - this straight to DVD classic from 1980...



So the question is Doc and Bao, are you guys "ready to rumble"?

GrahamB wrote:I tell a lie - I've found one reference to "six directions boxing" - this straight to DVD classic from 1980...



So the question is Doc and Bao, are you guys "ready to rumble"?

Ready and harmonized in all six directions.

GrahamB wrote:If you're looking at a form now to make the point that that's how it looked a thousand years ago, well, you're just making a fool of yourself.

Agreed 100%. During the past 200 years, all of the major TCC styles have been modified and edited from their original forms, which very few people are familiar with today. None of these styles even existed yet 1,000 years ago.

GrahamB wrote:If you're looking at a form now to make the point that that's how it looked a thousand years ago, well, you're just making a fool of yourself.

We are speaking about terms and names, not how martial arts looks like. You are just trying to confuse the subjects.

GrahamB wrote:I don't know a single martial art that has "liu he" in the title that isn't referring to 6 harmonies. In English people translate it as "six harmony praying mantis", or "six harmony spear", or "six harmony boxing".

None of these names refers to the nei-wai connections as in Xingyi.

You are fixated with a name. "Harmony" is just a bad translation. "Harmony" is a completely different character. The character in liuhe just means "connect" or "connection", not harmony. The meaning of the term is "6 directions", meaning that something "connects" in all directions, like the "liuhe pagoda", "liuhe bridge" etc.

The 6 harmonies are in the 10 Thesis of Yeu Fei, which are really old, and then later got put into various writings:

"1750 that a famous master called Dai Long Bang captured from different classic texts the right way to practice the basic tenets from martial arts theories at the time. His texts included a short study of what is known as “the six harmonies”." https://wingchunjourney.co.uk/home/the- ... harmonies/

Yes, I said it was Xingyi.

And Wing Chun has nothing to do with the 6 harmonies as in Xingyi.

Not many martial arts existed before 1750...

Apparently not according to your history book...

"18 hands of Luohan" for instance, was documented in the 10th century, early song dynasty, slightly earlier than Yue Fei. Many martial arts have their origins in this era.

Quote from Bao:

"Da Liuhemen quan is a Shaolin art, it is not based on the principles of internal/external 6 harmonies. Easy to see that there's no 3 external correlations in their performances, it's all disconnected, pure external limb driven movements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrF8zmyJrg4"

Also a quote from Bao a few posts later:

"We are speaking about terms and names, not how martial arts looks like. You are just trying to confuse the subjects. "



You're just talking self contradictory nonsense as usual. It's a waste of time talking with you when you just change position all the time.

GrahamB wrote:You're just talking self contradictory nonsense as usual. It's a waste of time talking with you when you just change position all the time.

I haven't changed any position and there's no contradiction. You are just too dumb to get. It's easy to see where the "6 harmonies" lack. And yes, the names are what they are.

As usual you try to confuse the subjects when you have been proven wrong. Well, go ahead and mope like a little baby.

I don't know - maybe you can't read English good? The facts are right there in text above?

Liuhe as in “six directions” and in “six harmonies” may very well be interpreted as the same thing. Just think about it. The external and internal harmonies simply describe how one’s body feels peng jin, or, in other words, “expansion” in all directions.

Apparently not according to your history book...

"18 hands of Luohan" for instance, was documented in the 10th century, early song dynasty, slightly earlier than Yue Fei. Many martial arts have their origins in this era.

Documented in the 10th century, where? Do you have a source for this? Was it a martial art?

"18 hands of luohan" seems to be a name for a modern qigong set...

HotSoup wrote:Liuhe as in “six directions” and in “six harmonies” may very well be interpreted as the same thing. Just think about it. The external and internal harmonies simply describe how one’s body feels peng jin, or, in other words, “expansion” in all directions.

Yes. For the record, the character "he" is harmony, like, being together, facing, or representing. 和平区. For the record, the liuhe pagoda (六和塔) is called six harmonies pagoda because of the six buddhist ordinances, not because it faces six directions. The idea of being in harmony with a principle is present here. You may also consider other similar uses of "direction" in such a case, such as a "ten directions temple". The thing to understand is that first, it is not necessarily physical directions which are being referred to. It could mean that but I don't think it has to. Second, there is not necessarily a concept of "six directions" or "six harmonies" in and of itself in the same way you have, ex. "eight trigrams". The term liuhe almost always means something specific and not general. In the case of liuhe ta (pagoda) above the directions are mapped onto buddhist precepts.

My teacher was very specific and repeated the formula for six harmonies in chinese over and over. Elbow follows knee... There are some cute ways to talk about it. Hand and foot go out together. "So you see," he tells the child, "The hand and the foot are married, because they are both tall. So they go out together. The elbow and the knee are both married because..." degedegedege.

But I don't think that when I see the term liuhe pagoda that it has something to do with the hands and feet. So similarly it does not always mean six physical directions. It could mean that when there is up there is down, as well. Like Adam Hsu says "I have one arm, not two arms". It could mean anything.

I think the question over liuhe is, "what does it mean to you?" If it means something to you, to help you remember something your teacher said, then it's great.

From LIUHE BOXING
萬籟聲
by Wan Laisheng (1929)

The type of Shaolin that I learned was the Liuhe art. It is part of the Wei Tuo [Skanda – a Buddhist guardian deity] branch, and therefore includes elements of training drawn from Wei Tuo Boxing and Wei Tuo Pole. The “six unions” [liu he] are divided into three internal unions – essence, energy, and spirit united with each other – and three external unions – hands, eyes, and body united with each other. Once the internal unions and external unions are merged together, then the art can be used to defeat opponents.
　　The concept of the six unions is a feature of not just this art, but of all Chinese martial arts. However, if the purpose of your training is actually to defend against opponents, you must also incorporate the “five elements” and “four antennas”, and then you will be sure to succeed. The five elements are metal, wood, water, fire, and earth, which correspond in the body to the lungs, liver, kidneys, heart, and spleen. As for the four antennas: the teeth are the antenna for the bones, the tongue is the antenna for the muscles, the pores all over the body are the antenna for the blood, and the nails of the fingers and toes are the antenna for the sinews. Another version of the six unions is: eyes united with mind, mind united with energy, energy united with body, body united with hands, hands united with feet, feet united with knees. This version is equally valid.
　　People nowadays talk of martial arts masters having “eight patterns”, which are based on the use of the two eyes, two ears, two hands, and two feet. In terms of boxing postures, these patterns refer to eight kinds of techniques, four above for the hands – pulling, striking, lifting, and sealing – and four below for the feet – kicking, snapping, sweeping, and swinging.
　　There are also “eight shapes”: a cat charging, a dog dodging, a rabbit turning, an eagle pouncing, an evergreen standing proud, a hawk turning over, hollowing inward with your chest, stomping down with your foot. Having a tendency toward eight postures in martial arts is equivalent to the eight strokes in calligraphy: dotting stroke, horizontal stroke, vertical stroke, hooking stroke, twisting stroke, lifting stroke, left-curving stroke, and right-curving stroke. Whatever characters are being written, the calligrapher will not go beyond the eight basic strokes. Whatever the fighting scenario, the martial artist will not go beyond the eight basic techniques. The patron saint of scholars is Confucius. The patron saint of martial artists is Yue Fei.
　　The sky has eight kinds of weather, the ground eight changes of terrain, and a man has his eight key parts – his four limbs, and his eyes and ears. The fighting methods include eight strikes, eight sealings, eight closings, eight advancings, eight retreatings, eight shieldings, eight postures, eight changes. Eight by eight [i.e. the interactions of the these eight features with each other] equals sixty-four techniques.
　　In the Luihe art, attention is given to dodging aside, piercing through, alternating between emptiness and fullness, and skillfully striking. There are no restrictions as to what part of the body is used, all parts getting trained equally. The boxing and kicking techniques of this art are compiled into twenty-four training routines, only about seven or eight of which are commonly practiced. If you only learn one of them, make it the basic set, explained below. Perhaps someday I will publish the rest of them.
　　When engaging with an opponent, this art aligns at three points: nose to nose, hand to hand, foot to foot. The essence of this art can be summed up in these six sayings:
　　“Focused, determined, and grounded; precise, firm, and ruthless.”
　　“Hollow your chest and withdraw your belly. Squeeze your thighs and tuck your hips.”
　　“If he does not move, I do move. But as soon as he makes a move, I am like an avalanche.”
　　“Advance attacking his center, retreat attacking his limbs.”
　　“Waist like an axle, hand like a wheel.”
　　“Front foot light, rear foot heavy. Stare like a deer, engage like fangs.”
　　The founder of this art was “Divine Spear” Liu Jingyuan [Dekuan] of Cangzhou, who taught it to his top disciple Zhao Xinzhou. This art therefore might actually get its name from its spear set, the Liuhe Yang Family Spear.
　　The art also contains the “Meat Tenderizing” Continuous Boxing two-person set, which is a means of practicing application, and which is derived from Monkey Boxing. Two partners spar, a single technique dividing into several actions. It is presented below after the solo set for your reference.
　　This art has the broadest possible scope, because no martial art can be practiced without the six unions, and indeed no person can exist without the six unions. The art is based on the “three realms” [sky, ground, mankind], established by the “five elements”, moves in accordance with the “seven stars” [Big Dipper, i.e. revolves around specific principles], expresses the “eight trigrams”, and refers to the “nine palaces”.
　　There are additionally six kinds of grappling methods, as well as a Liuhe saber set.
　　We even have a poem expressing the art through the generations (in which Master Liu represents “compassion” [for creating the art], Master Zhao represents “generosity” [for teaching the art], and I represent “reverence” [respecting the art]):

https://brennantranslation.wordpress.co ... he-boxing/