the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Well, that particular hand arrangement is the same as Play Guitar. So, if that (or an arm drag) is the intention of the movement, then it is what it is.

Steve James wrote:Well, that particular hand arrangement is the same as Play Guitar. So, if that (or an arm drag) is the intention of the movement, then it is what it is.

The grasp sparrow's tail, Lu (pull back) also have both palms facing the opposite direction. Yang Taiji clearly defined the move before single whip is 'Shuang Lu (double pulling - pull to the left and then pull to the right)". Why should Shuang Lu have both palms facing the same direction (both palms down, or both palms out)? It's not consistent IMO.

Lu doesn't come before Single Whip, An (both palms down) does. There's no rule that the left turn in SW has to be a pull; it doesn't have to grasp the opponent's arm at all. If grasping was the intention, then obviously both palms down isn't ideal. The form will follow the intended function.

Steve James wrote:Lu doesn't come before Single Whip, An (both palms down) does. There's no rule that the left turn in SW has to be a pull; it doesn't have to grasp the opponent's arm at all. If grasping was the intention, then obviously both palms down isn't ideal. The form will follow the intended function.

Peng (ward off). Lu (pull back), Ji (press forward), An (push), Shung Lu (double pulling), single whip, ...

Do some Yang Taiji forms just skip "Shung Lu (double pulling)"?

Peng (ward off). Lu (pull back), Ji (press forward), An (push), Shung Lu (double pulling), single whip, ...

Do some Yang Taiji forms just skip "Shung Lu (double pulling)"?

Imo, they aren't skipping anything. The double pulling is something that your branch does. The name, shung lu, doesn't come up in most texts, ime.

Steve James wrote:

Peng (ward off). Lu (pull back), Ji (press forward), An (push), Shung Lu (double pulling), single whip, ...

Do some Yang Taiji forms just skip "Shung Lu (double pulling)"?

Imo, they aren't skipping anything. The double pulling is something that your branch does. The name, shung lu, doesn't come up in most texts, ime.

So, what you are saying is the move "Shuang Lu (double pulling)" doesn't exist in some Yang Taiji form at all.



What's the name of the move before Single whip and after An (0.58 - 1.04) and (2.35 - 2.39)?



According to this Yang form list, right after the 3. grasp bird's tail, it's 4. single whip. But that move is neither An (the last move of grasp bird's tail), nor single whip. What's the name of it? Unless the Shuang Lu (double pulling) is considered as the last move of the grasp bird's tail Peng, Lu, Ji, An, Shuang Lu.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/103-form_ ... ly_tai_chi

It’s not so much how you go into SW it’s how you come out of it
I could show u dozens of applications for SW but it’s not important what u do but how u do it

Well, that movement "with both palms down" is not the way many Yang styles do SW. The shuang lu name isn't in CMC style, at least in the US. Anyway, you were arguing that one palm had to face up and one down. (Fwiw, John, I've had teachers show both ways. So, how I do it depends on what I'm visualizing. I was never exposed to the 'shuang lu' there, but it's an idea to put in the toolbox. Still, GM Chang doesn't do the same movement as CMC (which looks much more like a double-pull down to me). What do you think?

Btw, some say the ba step is part of the eight-angled thing, and the fishes are the yin yang.

Like I said, the name used for the movements between An and SW was called Fishes in Eight Angled Diagram. In it the palms face each other. Maybe Wayne has the book with YCF as a young man. Here's a video of someone who uses the name, but imo it's not the way it appears in YCF's book. Anyway, I'm not criticizing his form, just pointing out the name.

OOps So many edits, but the complete title of the following video is "Tai Chi Stepping Stones Short form Fishes in Eight Diagrams & Single Whip."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXKPdoRliVY&t=205s

That is terrible
White crane drinks from saucer sums it all up
He breaks so many principles and his body is so disjointed
The name two fishes in the eight triagrams comes from one source only
Tseng Ju Pai and he substitutes pictures of his student for those of Yang because he dosent have photos of yang doing that posture
CMC has the double pull but it is not applied as a pull but as a double ward off

I couldn't have been clearer that I couldn't care less about his form. What should be interesting is what he does, not how he does it. I seem to remember hearing that there are many ways to do it, but whatever.

Afa the form name:

The name two fishes in the eight triagrams comes from one source only Tseng Ju Pai and he substitutes pictures of his student for those of Yang because he doesn't have photos of yang doing that posture

One source or not. I was talking about the name. It does have a meaning, and I'm more aligned with John on that point. In fact, I'd tell anyone interested to look at what GM Chang's hands are doing. Analysis isn't the same as criticism. Afa the "Illustrated" book, if I'm not mistaken, it's other Yang family members demonstrating that movement. Understanding what they're doing might be doing might be worthwhile. Maybe I'll look for the book to post the pics.

CMC has the double pull but it is not applied as a pull but as a double ward off

That's a contradiction. CMC doesn't have a double pull there. The only difference is the height at which each part of the movement is done. It can be done at chest level, eye level, can go from up to down, or the opposite. Yeah, "crane dips its beak" is unorthodox language, but the guy does it down low. Many people do the same movement at shoulder level. The final movement to SW, in his case, is a kind of chop (a la Fan thru...). Earlier, someone posted a tongbei example. Nuff said. Otoh, many people use that left hand as a push.

wayne hansen wrote:It’s not so much how you go into SW it’s how you come out of it
I could show u dozens of applications for SW but it’s not important what u do but how u do it

Why hasn't this been discussed before now? hmmm

Was PMing with someone about that method of 'application' a few months back when the Mother Palm thread was chugging along - waiting for someone to at least mention it. You hinted at it when you listed YCF's preferred postures. You watch, Wayne, the 'teachers' are gonna sneak it as if they'd always known...

Have you noticed how the language and vernacular changes around here among some of the teachers as they adjust their 'understanding' to now accommodate what they used to argue against? It's been a thing since RSF has been a thing.

People learn and change. I shudder to think that the knowledge and understanding I have now is the extent of what I will learn or know.

How long has it been since you learned something new or adjusted your thinking to accommodate new information and experiences? There's nothing shameful about it, it's a sign of growth and change.

Not quite sure about language changing
I do know a lot of people are all over the place changing from one view to the dead opposite
My tai chi changes daily
Best to understand the thing before you modify it

I wouldn't say my base assumptions or fundamentals change much, but the details change with time as new potential opens up. A lot of what tends to change is how I talk about it.

wayne hansen wrote:Not quite sure about language changing
I do know a lot of people are all over the place changing from one view to the dead opposite

Some haven't changed their tune since they got here.

All over the place, yeah. And the cognitive dilemma that presents to the poor students of those that presume to teach - those students that notice, anyway...

wayne hansen wrote:My tai chi changes daily
Best to understand the thing before you modify it

At least understand how to impart the thing. There are only a few ways to do that.