High level vs. low level

[dragontigerpalm]

Low level is like carrying around a bag of tricks. No matter how many tricks are in the bag or how proficient one is in rooting through and pulling out the appropriate one it is an act that is separate from oneself and results in a delay. no matter how slight, and is subject to confusion.
High level is the state where skill with comprehension has been incorporated in and unified with oneself. One sees, understands and does as one.

[DeusTrismegistus]

In class one day I was sparring someone and my teacher stopped us. I was in forward weighted stance and being pretty agressive and when I would get close I was able toknock my partner off balance pretty easily and almost always had a better position. My teacher showed him something to do and he had me get in my stance and he got in position and then he moved back suddenly and I made a very slight forward movement which he used to apply knee seizing and I never had a chance. I had no idea that I was even pressing forward until he threw me.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

high level = winner of the conflict

low level = loser of the conflict

[Interloper]

Naw, Darth. That's not really accurate IMO.
High-level skills confer an edge or advantage in combat, but they don't guarantee that you will "win" all the time. A person with low-level skills (such as gross-motor-movement techniques) can still overcome a person with sophisticated internal power and structure if the latter has not honed his skills in martial application.

It would be great to be able to say that having high-level skills meant that you always win over someone who lacks those skills, but there are other factors to consider when fighting -- logistical, physical and environmental.

[bruce]

"skill" implies (a lot of) specific

One would have to ask, "skill in what"?

i would answer skill in being able to stop another person from imposing their violence on you.
skill in redirecting violence

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Naw, Darth. That's not really accurate IMO.
High-level skills confer an edge or advantage in combat, but they don't guarantee that you will "win" all the time. A person with low-level skills (such as gross-motor-movement techniques) can still overcome a person with sophisticated internal power and structure if the latter has not honed his skills in martial application.

It would be great to be able to say that having high-level skills meant that you always win over someone who lacks those skills, but there are other factors to consider when fighting -- logistical, physical and environmental.

If they offer no guarantee of a win or at least assurance of the edge spoken of, then, they should not be labeled "high level".

Transposing the idea to surgeons.

the high level skill achieves more complex things, whereas teh low level achieves the rudimentary.

in fighting, or martial art, then it is about victory.

in health, it is about effective healing

in spiritual pursuit it is about understanding

and so on.

But, imo, as far as martial art goes, it is definitely a tactile element that can be easily displayed. Not to say that an upset can't occur on a rematch, but martial skill is meant to be displayed as superior tactical ability through conditioning and strength, or via technique, or a combination of both and ergo the win.

[river rider]

I would feel that my taiji was high level when I consistently won fights with it utilizing the principles found in the classics... using 4 oz to lead 1000 lbs, leave after but arrive first, know the opponent but he cannot know you, using jin not li, overcoming hard with soft etc etc...and this is because taiji is defined in terms of these principles and the methods of applying them, this is why it's taiji and not wing chun or whatever. If I win all my fights but don't use the principles I'm certainly not a high level taiji practitioner, but hey... I can still be a high level FIGHTER. However, becoming a high level fighter offers only that (but that could certainly be enough)... the IMAs offer more, or at least claim other goals and abilities than just fighting... in which case being a high level practitioner would require accomplishment in these areas as well as fighting

[Ian]

High level is anyone who can whip my ass, low level is anyone who can't

I thought low level means people who want to

God, I love these smilies!

[SitYodTong]

My definition of "high level" vs. "low level"

- If you can use your move against a resist stranger then no matter how ugly it looks, it's high level skill. If you can only use your move on your cooperated demo partner then no matter how pretty it looks, it's still low level skill.

- If you can use your move, even you don't have any theory or principle to support, it's high level skill. If you can't use your move, even if you have all the nice theory and principle to support, it's still low level skill.

What's yours definition on this?

Erm, pretty much exactly what you said!

[Walk the Torque]

You're just mimmicking and not really understanding it. That's what I get by that.

mimmicking what?

What I meant was that you could be copying beautifully a set of moves but not getting the understanding of them or their applications, or you can't put them to work, obviously you're just mimmicking the person that taught you and that's it.(perhaps I used the term wrong).

Just to be clear. I see three main areas in open hand combat. Striking, locking and throwing. There are also subsections of these areas such as Attack, defense and counter-attack.

Lets take striking for instance. In the begining, when our skill is not so great, we may need a large movement in order to deliver a powerful strike. So we rely on accelerating our weapon (say a fist) through the air as fast as we can to achieve the desired result. Over time, as our skill increases, we begin to realize that we can use the forces of momentum, correct alignment, the twistings and compressions of the body and our intent to refine and enhance our punching power. Inherent in this process comes the ability to deliver strong (or stronger) strikes while covering less and less distance with the fist. Moreover, the many hours of training with partners brings us to the realization that if an opponant is moving towards us, and our timing is correct, we can in fact make extremely small movements (with the above elevation in skills) and catch them in a way that intercepts their energy and nips in the bud their attempt to over-come our defenses.

Where locking is concerned, there is also this progression from larger to smaller movements, in that the application of force against an area of the body that has reached its full range of motion, can be made many times more efficient if the above mechanisms for striking are employed and transposed to fit the situation. This effiency of motion and method of application of force will manifest itself in not only requiring less movement, but also requiring less movement (this is not a typo . The reason is simply that force = mass x acceleration, so that the faster you can get the mass of something to travel the more impact it will have when encountering another body. The only way that we can use whole body power without reducing the speed of its individual parts is to make sure that every part of the body moves very fast over a very small area. To an untrained observer a skilled persons movements can appear no more than a twitch. So that when say, a wrist lock is applied by someone of higher skill, instead of making a large circular motion with the arms and /or stepping to the side to achieve the necessary leverage, they would articulate their body in such a way as to couple their refined body mechanics (and greater power) with the correct position to apply the most effeicent use of force by creating a first class lever system where the arrangement of effort-fulcrum-load (in that order) is reached in the shortest amount of time and space possible.

The principle of reducing movement to achieve the same result can be applied to throwing also. As a simple example imagine (once having entered) you have managed to hold your opponants head and are ready to do a head throw. At this point, if you where using a lower level skill, you might try pulling their head to the rear to unbalance them or attempt to bring their centre outside their base by walking or pivoting around his body. If your skill was of a higher quality, you could simply apply a sudden release of force (fa jin) in one direction (say to the front of the opponants body) and wait for his reaction as he attempts to regain his balance (and using your ting jin) carry him further in the direction he has elected to move, and apply the correct amount of force to then bring him outside his base and towards the floor.

All these methods are in my understanding the mark of higher level skill. That is smaller movements that achieve the same results as lower level skill. There are also other marks of higher level skill of course; one of which is the ease and beauty with which someone can pull off their techniques and the regularity with which they can do it.

Higher and lower skill levels are really just relative positions of practioners on their journeys, whether someone uses yang style's roll back as a deflection, take-down, arm lock or pulling the hair to bring the face to the knee, it will always be a reflection of the relationship between one persons level of skill and the other. Also with so many other variables that may influence the situation, it makes the whole debate a little acidemic in my opinion.

But that is just my opinion.

[Interloper]

Create pain -- Low Level
Create control -- High level

[johnwang]

Create pain -- Low Level
Create control -- High level

Are you saying wrestler is higher level than boxer?

[Ian]

Create pain -- Low Level
Create control -- High level

Is the Crucio curse low level?

[Interloper]

Anyone can cause pain. But what if you can control a person's entire body so he can't move, can't get up, and starts spasming... and you still have a hand free? That's a lot more sophisticated than a punch in the chops, yes?

[I-mon]

one time i tried to play capoeira with a monkey. as soon as i was close enough to be a physical danger to it, it's whole body instantly hunched into an attacking jump straight at me with all it's teeth bared. that fraction of a second hit me like an electric shock - the teeth, the hiss, the concentrated and focused attacking spirit - and then it was gone, sprang off and disappeared. the actual movement towards me must have only been about a millimetre and taken a millisecond, a feint.

it took an instant, from stillness watching me - FULL ATTACK! - gone.