Form Transmission and Mistakes

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby gretel on Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:42 am

Nice discussion by DeusT and certainly matches my experience. Especially this: "then later the teacher will show us something about that move or movement and we may think and tell others that "he showed me something new about this move," when actually what you were shown was always there, you just couldn't see and recognize it." Happens to me again and again.

I'd add that people have very individual learning styles. Some people can look at a demonstration and translate it into motor movements while others have to break the movement into tiny pieces and go over and over it. My style was see, try, fail, try, fail, see, take it home, work it out and bring it back to class almost right. rinse, repeat.

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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby middleway on Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:29 am

The main training is in the Nei Gung, Li gong methods not the forms IMO.

this has become very clear to me recently.

But if you train the 18 wu xing nei gung you will get massively better results than simply the 5 element fist forms.

for instance if you train the 6 Pi quan nei gong you train (6 simple motions related to specific Pi quan training)

Spine wave, intercostal power, shoulder, scapular, gravity, RDOF, stepping, Dang Jin, monkey wrist, heavy elbow, spiral force, 6 harmonies, Lung force, breath, intent, 5 gates ... etc

Now all of this is in the Basic Pi quan form but you have to look for it. Train the nei gong then it will be there in the form as your body has it.

the Nei gong training in Xing yi aint talked about much ... its always forms this forms that ...

Wonder why that is...

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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby Royal Dragon on Sat Jul 12, 2008 11:08 pm

Plante wrote:
Royal Dragon wrote:Work on the combat moves of each and very technique in the form. You will HAVE to get it right, or the technique will fail.


My opinion is that you have to learn the techniques individually and then learn the form. It makes learning it faster and easier since you know what power to use, what intent, what it is for. Forms are mostly for demonstration or to practice the techniques in a sequence easy to remember.


Reply]
As I understand it, forms were originally developed as a diploma so one could prove he had mastered the style. They were not originally meant to be taught until one mastered the fighting skills first.

Learning forms first, or early on is a very modern thing.
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby Plante on Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:12 pm

Yep.
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby edededed on Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:50 pm

middleway wrote:The main training is in the Nei Gung, Li gong methods not the forms IMO.

this has become very clear to me recently.

But if you train the 18 wu xing nei gung you will get massively better results than simply the 5 element fist forms.

for instance if you train the 6 Pi quan nei gong you train (6 simple motions related to specific Pi quan training)

Spine wave, intercostal power, shoulder, scapular, gravity, RDOF, stepping, Dang Jin, monkey wrist, heavy elbow, spiral force, 6 harmonies, Lung force, breath, intent, 5 gates ... etc

Now all of this is in the Basic Pi quan form but you have to look for it. Train the nei gong then it will be there in the form as your body has it.

the Nei gong training in Xing yi aint talked about much ... its always forms this forms that ...

Wonder why that is...


Easy - because most people don't know about it! (I don't know about what you are talking about, either - sounds nice, though!)

In terms of "knowledge about xingyi," there is the "common knowledge" - i.e. santi, wuxing, shierxing, wuxinglianhuan, wuxingshengke, zashichui, anshenpao; and then there is the "rare knowledge" - i.e. almost anything else.

The problem with "anything else" is that each style may not necessarily have the same stuff, and people are never sure what REALLY belongs there (this is where lineage comes in).

So... Does anyone else here practice the above neigong that Chris mentioned? Or do they have different neigong sets for xingyi?
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby middleway on Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:05 am

Easy - because most people don't know about it! ... The problem with "anything else" is that each style may not necessarily have the same stuff, and people are never sure what REALLY belongs there (this is where lineage comes in).

So... Does anyone else here practice the above neigong that Chris mentioned? Or do they have different neigong sets for xingyi?


I am not sure that its that people dont know about it necisarrily ... maybe just that it isnt focused on as much as getting the 'form' right. I guess these excersises could have just been integrated as warm up training in some lines... they are quite specific as i learnt them but i think most Xing yi People would instantly recognise some of them.

They are excersises to get the maximum isolated force from a certain area ... the wrist for instance. As well as internal training and heavy focus on DanTien work for each element. Then the form puts all of those high volume isolated forces together with the dan tien work into a single thing.

Now there still is alot missing from my movement .. but i am working on it ... and the first 6 months training those nei gung once i learnt them changed me a huge amount, mainly in terms of power.

Maybe its a case of - dont ask ... dont get! - :D

thanks for the responce.

Cheers
Chris
Last edited by middleway on Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby I-mon on Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:59 am

chris who did you study xingyi with?
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby middleway on Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:00 am

Alex Kozma ... I believe the Nei Gong came from his Xing Yi teacher in Taiwan, who was from the mainland. Dont recall his name.

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Last edited by middleway on Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:19 am

to simply cut to the chase...

If the move is non-applicable, then it is incorrect.

If the move has no result or benefit, then, like a cancer it should be cut out.

If there is lack of understanding, then why bother moving forward and instilling the bad habit when you should be seeking to find the correction and failing that, leave it, it is broken and will not work.

ultimately, any form that cannot be applied is useless, be it martially or as a health practice. If results cannot be shown readily then that is all that is needed to be observed.
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby middleway on Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:20 am

darth, Totally agree! Well put.

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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:23 am

Darth Rock&Roll wrote:to simply cut to the chase...

If the move is non-applicable, then it is incorrect.

If the move has no result or benefit, then, like a cancer it should be cut out.

If there is lack of understanding, then why bother moving forward and instilling the bad habit when you should be seeking to find the correction and failing that, leave it, it is broken and will not work.

ultimately, any form that cannot be applied is useless, be it martially or as a health practice. If results cannot be shown readily then that is all that is needed to be observed.


What you are talking about is a decision that can only be made by a qualified person. If the purpose of a movement is not readily apparent then that does not mean there is no purpose. An application may be shown but may not be easy to do. Results take time. No one seems to want to work hard and put time in to see results, they would much rather just be able to do it right away.

I don't consider myself qualified to decide what movements from our forms are worth keeping and which are worth throwing away. As I spend more time practicing I also see benefits from things I didn't see before.
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby middleway on Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:47 am

i think thats a really important point too.

For sure alot of people 'keep what is useful reject what is useless' without actually knowing if it is useful or useless!

Personally i think most excersises should have an immediately obvious benefit to the goal of the excersise. Things are mostly pretty clear in this stuff. Most of the time you can 'see' the benefit of doing something a certain way ... you just have to train hard in it to 'get' the benefit.

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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby edededed on Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:51 pm

middleway wrote:
I am not sure that its that people dont know about it necisarrily ... maybe just that it isnt focused on as much as getting the 'form' right. I guess these excersises could have just been integrated as warm up training in some lines... they are quite specific as i learnt them but i think most Xing yi People would instantly recognise some of them.

They are excersises to get the maximum isolated force from a certain area ... the wrist for instance. As well as internal training and heavy focus on DanTien work for each element. Then the form puts all of those high volume isolated forces together with the dan tien work into a single thing.

Now there still is alot missing from my movement .. but i am working on it ... and the first 6 months training those nei gung once i learnt them changed me a huge amount, mainly in terms of power.

Maybe its a case of - dont ask ... dont get! - :D

thanks for the responce.

Cheers
Chris


Is there one comparatively commonly known exercise that you could vaguely describe (just enough so that one who knows it would be able to confirm that it is the same exercise, or that they have it too)?

It is my suspicion that although in the past, everything about xingyiquan (or baguazhang, or whatever) were secrets, since certain things were "let out" via books such as that by Sun Lutang, whatever was not put in those books was kept close to the vest...
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby klonk on Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:40 pm

DeusTrismegistus wrote:
Darth Rock&Roll wrote:to simply cut to the chase...

If the move is non-applicable, then it is incorrect.

If the move has no result or benefit, then, like a cancer it should be cut out.

If there is lack of understanding, then why bother moving forward and instilling the bad habit when you should be seeking to find the correction and failing that, leave it, it is broken and will not work.

ultimately, any form that cannot be applied is useless, be it martially or as a health practice. If results cannot be shown readily then that is all that is needed to be observed.


What you are talking about is a decision that can only be made by a qualified person. If the purpose of a movement is not readily apparent then that does not mean there is no purpose. An application may be shown but may not be easy to do. Results take time. No one seems to want to work hard and put time in to see results, they would much rather just be able to do it right away.

I don't consider myself qualified to decide what movements from our forms are worth keeping and which are worth throwing away. As I spend more time practicing I also see benefits from things I didn't see before.


Modesty is certainly a virtue, I applaud it wherever I see it, but if no one at all can show a convincing application for a move, I suggest we skip it and move on.
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Re: Form Transmission and Mistakes

Postby middleway on Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:39 am

Is there one comparatively commonly known exercise that you could vaguely describe


Sure ... one of the nei gung is a static rise drill overturn fall loop. I am sure everyone that has done pi quan knows this loop.

Hands travel up the center line drill up and forward, overturn and fall to a 'santi' hand position then loop again the other side and so on. It can be performed with the spine wave (linked to dan tien rotation) initiating the rise and fall, without much extention in the arms and body ... or with a large open close of the chest and lungs ... or a few other ways.

This specific nei gung works mainly Spine wave, Dan tien rotation, RDOT (obviously)... but also has drilling, open/close of the chest (intercostal muscles and lungs) associated to it, Dependant on how you perform the movement.

Like i say, most of them people will recognize as 'excersises' i suspect. (although some are a little more difficult to associate to the form motion).

Cheers
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