One method for optimizing learning

[Wanderingdragon]

Doc, I think this internal stuff we train is the quickest way to your solution. It begins with the breath and the fear response, when you are startled , two things happen, your adrenaline rises to fever pitch in a heartbeat, and you seek immediate defense, be it retreat ,escape, or blast away. We train to control the breathing so that we maintain an even oxygen supply, in turn giving us the ability to control the adrenaline rush, resulting in the ability to make qualified decisions in tense situations. So in essence if we study our arts properly we are already in the place of optimal learning. To many people lack qualified instruction, or worse don't follow the instruction

[Chris McKinley]

Doc,

RE: "I specifically inquired about the "purely mental process dealing with the subconscious mind", as you correctly stated, and nothing more.". No, what you asked, and I quote, is, "... how do you access this part of the mind to program your techniques and strategies into the 'hard drive' of your survival instinct software which controls your automatic reactions and spontaneous responses?". And the point is, the assumptions inherent in your question are, IME, erroneous. I don't need to perform any purely mental work in order to achieve my goals. I described for you in a certain amount of detail exactly how I go about programming new tactics into a trainee's intuitive responses. There's a lot more to the contextualization than I went over here, but my reply was already getting fairly long and I've covered contextualization in greater detail in previous threads.

If you disagree with my conclusions or my methods, fine. I'm not asking you to agree with me; in fact, I'm doing you the courtesy of answering your question about my methods. The way you have repeatedly phrases your objections to both mine and Shooter's offerings contain certain assumptions with which I disagree, and I simply said so. If that is not the premise from which you are operating, great.....simply say so. I'll take your word for it. There's no need to take my disagreement with what you have written as any sort of personal criticism in any way. My disagreement is with your thinking on this particular issue, and maybe not even that, if you take the time to correct our perception of exactly what your position is.

RE: "If you have nothing to share on the subject, or simply don't wish to address such an inquiry, that's fine. Just say so! But please don't presume to tell me what I am assuming, or that my perceived thinking is erroneous, and then claim that I'm giving you attitude.". LOL. If I have nothing to share on the subject? I just posted a ridiculously long, detailed response to your request and now somehow I have nothing to share on the subject? That's just puzzling. As to your assumptions, that is how you are coming across according to what you yourself specifically wrote. You appear to be making certain assumptions based on your phrasing, and I disagree with those assumptions. If you aren't, then please do us the favor of clarifying what your position actually is and I will be happy to simply take your word for it and go on.

For pete's sake, man....trying to have an in-depth, on-topic discussion with you without you turning it personal in some way, either as a personal ad hominem criticism of me or by assuming the worst intentions and interpreting things as a personal attack on you, is becoming a lot more work than what I get out of it is worth. I'm trying to be reasonable with you, as my lengthy on-topic post and my requests to return to the discussion bear out. The ball's kind of in your court at this point. I'm still willing to discuss the topic seriously with you, but you can't keep doing these flip-outs where you take things off on a personal tangent out of the blue. I've got no personal beef with you, as my PM's back and forth with you ought to prove, so please stop taking things in that direction.

Do us, and ultimately yourself, a favor.....if you think something came across as some sort of personal insult to you or whatever, and it seems like it's happening all of a sudden and for no reason, check it out before you jump to conclusions about negative intent. I'm a pretty careful writer, and I'm usually quite precise in exactly where I'm placing my criticism, but nobody's perfect, and if I write something that you feel offends you personally the way it's worded that I don't intend, if you ask me about it, I'll be happy to apologize and assure you that it is not. Then we can just move on and get back to the discussion instead of these ad hominem tangents. Otherwise, this on again/off again thing with you is just getting tiresome, and at some point it's just not going to be worth the effort.

[Wanderingdragon]

The mental programming necessary is this, take adeep breath, very true, very simple.

[Doc Stier]

Wanderingdragon:

Thanks for your input. You make some good points.

What I'm questioning is how to program more efficient automatic reactions and spontaneous responses on a deeper level, which don't require "the ability to make qualified decisions in tense situations", whether these be emergency situations, ambush assaults, or other real combat scenarios requiring fast and immediate action.

For example, if you were to unknowingly place your hand on a burning hot surface or unexpectedly receive an electrical shock from something, you probably wouldn't take time to make a "qualified decision" before automatically withdrawing the hand to avoid serious injury. It would most likely be an immediate and spontaneous response, right?

Serious combat against a determined enemy is the same. Real fighting happens faster than conscious thought, with no time for anything except your innate survival reaction. Thus, it seems imperative to overlay one's trained principles, techniques, and movement patterns onto the deeper subconscious mind where such automatic reactions and spontaneous responses emanate from.

I am simply asking how others go about doing so mentally, not physically, if in fact this is even addressed in their study and training of martial arts. I have no predisposed expectations or assumptions regarding anyone's methodology, only curiosity to know what works for others in this regard.

[Doc Stier]

Ha! Ha!

Whatever, Chris. Consider following your own advice.

[Chris McKinley]

Okay, or maybe not. Too bad.

[BruceP]

Hey, Shooter:

Thanks for responding, man.

I'm not at all interested in the heavy bag drills or other physical techniques, however good they may be, as I already have an excessive truckload of techniques up the wazoo.

I am much more interested in the psychological programming methods employed to install the desired mojo on the subconscious hard-drive.

C'mon, man, give me something I can wrap my mind around....something believable!

Believable? hmm

I just tried to explain the process in general terms because that's all I'm able to do in text. The actual doing is an organic, experiential undertaking that respects the individual first and foremost. There are no standard mechanisms that I know of that work for everyone. What Mckinley outlined is more than I've ever seen from him in the past. His post does make perfect, clear sense of the scores of chatroom discussions he and I have had on this topic. Thanks for that, Chris. I can see how our approaches differ yet follow the same neuro-pathways.

From the get-go, Chris is working from a far more pragmatic platform in this type of work than I am. What I'm interested in initially is the perceptual aspects more than tactical movement. Bagua vs Tai Chi maybe.

The exercises and drills I use are purposely open-ended so that the perceptual can be expressed physically. Whatever expression the drills elicit are unique to the individual as is the learning/new found knowing. Each new bit of insight gained from reviewing the physical expression adds to an ever-expanding network of movement options. That isn't to say that one consciously picks and chooses movement options because this is purely intuitive work after all. It can be observed though, that an individual will repeat certain patterns with good fighty effect without ever mindfully practicing them. I have absolutely no education in whatever fields of science apply to this kind of work, so I have no idea why it happens. I just know that it does.

The drills and exercises are the fuel. Without them, there is no fire. They're presented as lumps of clay and formatted to cultivate and/or preserve neutrality so that perception is expressed in its purest form. There is no good or bad, right or wrong. The only thing I find myself disagreeing with in what Chris posted is the focus on improvement. My own idea is; Don't improve. Evolve.

In response to the last paragraph in your post to wanderingdragon;
re-cognition sequencing.

[BruceP]

Apologies to Bhassler for what we did to his thread.

Sorry, Brian

Bruce

[Bhassler]

Hey Shooter,

I've actually gotten a lot more out of this thread than I had hoped. It's brought a lot of clarity to things you and Chris have been saying for years, and in fact I'm finding that in a few areas where I thought I disagreed slightly or had a different viewpoint that we all seem to be in much closer alignment from a learning standpoint than I had imagined. So I'm happy that I'm able to re-affirm my beliefs in the learning tools I continue to develop, and also am unable to escape the fact that despite how great my shiny new hammer is, the house is still not building itself. Like many people I'm continually challenged by the unavailability of training partners or teachers who are interested both facilitating intuitive learning and also helping to develop the necessary qualities of faith that make such a difference in how the learning generalizes to pressure situations.

Wanderingdragon:

Thanks for your input. You make some good points.

What I'm questioning is how to program more efficient automatic reactions and spontaneous responses on a deeper level, which don't require "the ability to make qualified decisions in tense situations", whether these be emergency situations, ambush assaults, or other real combat scenarios requiring fast and immediate action.

For example, if you were to unknowingly place your hand on a burning hot surface or unexpectedly receive an electrical shock from something, you probably wouldn't take time to make a "qualified decision" before automatically withdrawing the hand to avoid serious injury. It would most likely be an immediate and spontaneous response, right?

Serious combat against a determined enemy is the same. Real fighting happens faster than conscious thought, with no time for anything except your innate survival reaction. Thus, it seems imperative to overlay one's trained principles, techniques, and movement patterns onto the deeper subconscious mind where such automatic reactions and spontaneous responses emanate from.

I am simply asking how others go about doing so mentally, not physically, if in fact this is even addressed in their study and training of martial arts. I have no predisposed expectations or assumptions regarding anyone's methodology, only curiosity to know what works for others in this regard.

Hi Doc,

I'll just reply and lead off with the requisite acknowledgment that opinions will vary greatly, and my response is not meant to claim righteousness or deny the validity of opinions other than my own.

My personal short answer to how movement skills get overlayed onto the subconscious is through awareness. Your own example of a very hot surface is a perfect example-- not only do you jerk your hand back, but for the most part you only have to do it once to learn not to touch an open flame or a red hot stove. In this case, the distinction is very clear between good and bad, so the correlation between hot surface and pain is immediately a part of one's world view. In the same way, explorative movement (whether pure exploration or exploration relative to a partner and/or an objective) done with awareness allows someone to differentiate between effective and ineffective strategies. Once a strategy is recognized as more effective on a neurological level (rather than a cognitive one), then reflexive responses will tend to choose the more effective strategies based on the underlying subconscious directive/objective.

One way that it gets recognized on a neurological level rather than cognitive is by going slow enough and making it easy while paying attention to sensation so that finer and finer differentiations can be made. Another way is to increase pressure to the point where the sympathetic nervous system kicks in and learning happens that way. This is the more traditional model of the teacher beating the hell out of you until you figure out how to do it (negative reinforcement). In my view, the advantage of the latter system is that it reliably produces functional results very quickly. The disadvantage is that it promotes learning to a point of "good enough," even if "good enough" may not be optimal, and perhaps more significantly it requires a teacher to be there kicking your ass. Once a level is reached where the pressure is manageable or the student reaches a point where they become responsible for their own learning, then new strategies have to come into play. Realistically, a mix of both relaxed, intuitive learning and high pressure learning is probably most effective. Of course, both those elements can easily be present in traditional IMA practice, but for most people the training can be made more efficient with an understanding of how the process works and what they're trying to accomplish with whatever particular modality they happen to be using. In my case, I don't have an optimal training situation from a traditional standpoint, so I create more and more optimal processes within the context of what I've got.

All of which is to say that the mental component comes in via intention (whether fighting, relaxing, or playing) and isn't really separate from the physical practice. Things like meditation are relevant to the extent that they can be brought back into the physical practice, which ultimately is where the art lies.

So much for this being a short answer....

[Wanderingdragon]

Doc, you're in a darkened room , you can't see shit the enemy is just around the corner, you reach out to support yourself on the counter , it's blazing hot , you scream out in agony or you suffer the pain, this is the startle, this is the deep breath this is the subconscious response, I still say your control , conscious or subconcious is in the breath training.
Think of the breath work of navy seal and special forces, he'll you throw me in some frigid water I gotta breath still even with my nuts all up in my neck, believe me, lake Michigan here in chicago in early summer is bad enough

[marqs]

Chris McKinley and Shooter,
Thanks for the generous sharing of ideas. Great stuff, Some of them match my experience, but the clearer articulation is of great value. I'll be sure to try the new ideas out.

Chris, Some of the things you mentioned I've done in solo drills, and the way you explained them in two person drills makes so much sense. They also helped me crystallise some things that have made some past learning experiences so efficient. Much appreciated.

[Chris McKinley]

Bhassler,

Despite the silly tangents, I hope that my description above of my method of separating and then re-integrating the processes of learning, practicing and contextualizing is somewhat helpful to your discussion. Being able to further encode the proper movement with kinesthetic feedback is another very important reason why I keep emphasizing the importance of slow practice.

Another very important downside to the negative reinforcement model you mentioned above is that the learning occurs in a negative state. Under those circumstances, people will tend to stumble upon something that works 'good enough' and 'in the moment', and like you mentioned, the solution is rarely ideal so much as merely perfunctory in that particular instance. However, because the action taken is associated strongly with relieving a great deal of danger/fear/pain, surprise/etc., it tends to become a little too well-ingrained, and attempts to replace it later with superior tactics are, at minimum, far more difficult than they would otherwise be. IOW, it's a great way to ensure and ingrain functional mediocrity. We see exactly the same result when negative reinforcement is employed as the primary management method in the workplace. Mediocrity is almost irretrievably entrenched into the company culture.


Wanderingdragon,

What you're describing is certainly a very valid point about stress management, however, your situation regarding the darkness and enemy around the corner still doesn't really pertain to our discussion of intuitive responses. In your scenario, however terrifying it might be, the protagonist still knows the danger is coming and still has opportunity to respond in a consciously controlled manner. IOW, it's only about keeping yourself from being overwhelmed the arousal response, it's about which types of actions, movements and responses you generate when faced with the stimulus for doing so without any preliminary warning or foreknowledge.

[Doc Stier]

Chris, Shooter, Bhassler, and Wanderingdragon:

Many thanks for your experienced insights regarding the personal processes each of you uses. Good stuff all around.

[Wanderingdragon]

Chris, I say the best way to train is like inspecter Cleseau and his manservant kato,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH19xWx4 ... re=related
just remember to control the breath, this trains one to generate natural controlled responses to unnatural situations, finally no surprises

[BruceP]

Chris McKinley and Shooter,
Thanks for the generous sharing of ideas. Great stuff, Some of them match my experience, but the clearer articulation is of great value. I'll be sure to try the new ideas out.

Chris, Some of the things you mentioned I've done in solo drills, and the way you explained them in two person drills makes so much sense. They also helped me crystallise some things that have made some past learning experiences so efficient. Much appreciated.

np, marqs. Glad it was of some value.

Doc, thanks. That's very gracious of you.