One method for optimizing learning

[Doc Stier]

Shooter:

Hey, man, credit where credit is due, right?

BTW, who did you train with to pick up your knitting skills?

[Chris McKinley]

marqs,

I'm glad you've taken some value from the discussion. I'd be interested to read of some examples of your own experiences in this regard where you found this kind of material relevant. Similarities, differences, remaining questions, etc. If you are so inclined.

[BruceP]

marqs,

I'm glad you've taken some value from the discussion. I'd be interested to read of some examples of your own experiences in this regard where you found this kind of material relevant. Similarities, differences, remaining questions, etc. If you are so inclined.

ditto

[Void]

This is a GREAT thread.

[Void]

Shooter and Chris: You guys talk about intuitive learning and responses, which is cool, but since intuitive faculties are the domain of the deeper subconscious mind, how do you access this part of the mind to program your techniques and strategies into the 'hard drive' of your survival instinct software which controls your automatic reactions and spontaneous responses?

For me, I think the answer is here:

Intuitive learning occurs when the individual is in a neutral state of being.

The kind of movement I'm talking about getting the person to generate is the kind that comes out most naturally in what could best be described as play.

Part of internal arts is exploring the mind body connection. Neutral states of mind and play are a gateway to the subconscious mind - when the body and mind are synchronised and without agenda. Essentially hypnosis is removing the conscious sensor to facilitate access to a deeper state of mind and body.

Perhaps we could say that, rather than access the deeper mind to program it in how to use the body - we access the body-mind to uncover and shape its programming - and perhaps in some instances release it from it. (I'm using programming in a broad sense here).

If I read correctly; Shooter and Chris talk about making natural movements functional and then, how to move from reflex responses into those functional natural movements. They have precisely described how to work with automatic reactions and spontaneous responses.

I'm not possessed of too much clarity at the moment - but the one thing I want to be clear on is that they both seem to have a syllabus they should be proud of - amazing.

[Wanderingdragon]

An animal on the Serengeti knows that at any moment it could be dinner, it is a constant state of awareness, as animals too we are also in posession of that sense, albeit dulled by civilization. There is talk of the deeper mind access and body and mind connection, reflex and natural movement. We study the internal arts so we should know that every whole is connected by the one, if we recognize that breath is the life force without which we die, then we must recognize breath is the necessary control mechanism for every motion, reflex, natural, expected or unexpected. To control the breath is to control the mind, the mind will then recognize all things around it and all things affecting it, this is awareness, this becomes the ability to move at will under whatever circumstance. How do we not recognize that learning to control the breath is the greatest opportunity to optimize learning of any kind?

[Bhassler]

Wanderingdragon.

Could you be a little more specific in terms of what you mean by "controlling the breath," and maybe talk about how it's applied practically in training to optimize gaining skill in personal combat more quickly and/or reliably in your opinion than other methods?

[Chris McKinley]

Wanderingdragon,

RE: "How do we not recognize that learning to control the breath is the greatest opportunity to optimize learning of any kind?". Who says we haven't? Giving breath its proper place in the scheme of things still wouldn't prevent the fact that there are many other things that breath cannot do, no matter how much control over it you have.

Perhaps I didn't make this clear enough in my last post to you, but what we're discussing isn't exclusively limited to talking about calming the mind down with breath control. As per your prior example, I made the point that if you have time and recognition of the need to control your breathing, you've already got way more forewarning than the kind of situations that Shooter and I are dealing with. And breathing techniques, no matter how sophisticated or masterfully controlled, simply do not yield intuitive movement in combat in and of themselves.

Breath control can be essential in not being overwhelmed by the amygdala and its fear responses. In that respect, it plays an absolutely essential role and works hand in hand with not only the kinds of training that Shooter and I have outlined here, but any other method one would care to use, so it's obviously important, but let's be clear. Even having phenomenal breath control skills, by themselves, won't do the job. You've got to have a little more than that up your sleeve, and it's in the development of these other factors that we're having our discussion on this thread.

[DaDa]

In continuation of negative reinforcement. You only need to touch an open flame to learn once that it'll burn you.

Does this mean that if your teacher/training partner hits you constantly, you learn faster?

So, for to train those sudden attacks, if somebody said "i'm going to punch you sometime within our training session and you have to keep an eye out" thus creating an atmosphere where you're never sure when you are going to get attacked. Would this be a good method for some people?

[Chris McKinley]

It still represents foreknowledge and you still know it's going to happen within a given timeframe. You also have an idea of what it's going to be, who's going to do it, and the assurance that there are no armed helpers or inconvenient bystanders. Still, for a limited time until it the surprise effect wears off, it can be a useful enough way to introduce the concept. It's still just to make a point, though. Simply doing that doesn't constitute training for it, nor will the effectiveness last very long anyway till the student habituates to the surprise.

[Wanderingdragon]

I guess I believe that what you are trying to train Chris, cannot be trained. The awareness I speak of is as I said one of a natural state in the animal kingdom of which we are a part, by way of the safety we've created through civilization, this aspect of our being has been lain dormant, I also guess that I am talking about tapping back into that natural state, once we realize that we are never safe, we recognize that we must always be aware of our surroundings. By remaining in this state of vigilance our reflexes are naturally hone to razor sharpness. Crossing a street the other day totally preoccupied, I was completely taken by the surprise of a car horn honking and an auto not 5ft away from me moving at a rate of speed that was beyond the legal limit, the driver obviously as surprised by my appearance in front of him as I was by his speeding towards me, my heart did not jump into my throat but down into my foot which transferred the reaction to my leg as I turned and darted out of the way of the on coming car, I did not think, there was no startled moment of paralysis, only the necessary action to get me to safety, why?, because I was aware of the fact that I was in the middle of the street. Once walking through a neighborhood unknown to me, two dogs, one a well fed full grown healthy pitbull came out of an alley in front of me, as has always been the case I was intent on not showing fear and continued walking at the same pace, but I also began to conciously settle my breath and steady my heart beat as I was truly afraid of these dogs, they were for sure dangerous, as I passed the pit circled behind me and I felt he was going to attack, he did, there was not a second between the time I felt his teeth touch my calf and my raising my leg out of his mouth , at the same time the heel of my palm fell firmly and heavily on his head, my other hand above my head (classic posture from my form)simultaneously my voice sounded with authority "HEY!", the dog retreated, there was no hesitation or thought in what I did, it was natural, when I did have time to think, the two dogs were in front of me and I only thought to cover my groin and look for high ground, the dogs retreated back into the alley, I would like to believe I out alphaed them by firm and steady action. This is the same sense you need in fighting, you cannot think you only must be able to do, this is the necessity of doing the same form endlessly, your technique must be in you, your form is your breath, it is in every classic treatise we have studied, as basic. If you are studying Internal, if your instructer is /was qualified, if your art is authentic, it is simply to train it. This too, in todays society is the demeanor that makes the bad guys think twice about F'ing with you in the first place, making for no surprises be cause you will know when you need to fight, to be prepared for the unexpected is to expect it, to train for the unexpected is to maintain calm, icey water will surely take your breath away, and I come back to that because this is how elite forces train to maintain calm, by training to maintain even breath, for a clear mind.

[Bhassler]

Thanks for the clarification, Wanderingdragon.

This is the same sense you need in fighting, you cannot think you only must be able to do, this is the necessity of doing the same form endlessly, your technique must be in you, your form is your breath, it is in every classic treatise we have studied, as basic. If you are studying Internal, if your instructor is /was qualified, if your art is authentic, it is simply to train it.

Are you suggesting that all that is necessary is correct form practice aligned with breath?

[Wanderingdragon]

[quote="Bhassler"]Wanderingdragon.

Could you be a little more specific in terms of what you mean by "controlling the breath," and maybe talk about how it's applied practically in training to optimize gaining skill in personal combat more quickly and/or reliably in your opinion than other methods?[/quote]

Try mentally doing an immediate technique while walking down the street whenever crossing a crack , this way or that , this technique involves a mental visualization but also employs a very physical movement of the center , that place that makes you body turn one way or another, to do this inperceptably takes the movement of the center by breath, hear you are learningto recognize the rules of internal MA and follow them , body follows the waist and all that good stuff, if you over commit you will be seen and people will say , "hey , is he crazy or what" you will just recognize you have been seen, and you have to learn to control your intent, the same can be done by engaging an oncoming pedestrian mentally,"what if it's that hand ?" "what if he steps this way?", in the gym your buddies should always throw a hand at you, and you should react, with controlled calm, the made you flinch kids game is always good, but as MAists we have to recognize and admit technique or flinch, all of this makes the breathing and tension noticable, recognize it to control it. Honestly fighters or not Guys should never stop playing these games.
Correct form practice is the tried and true route, but commitment will help you find practical short cuts, but I feel you should never abandon the traditional on the path.

[marqs]

I'm glad you've taken some value from the discussion. I'd be interested to read of some examples of your own experiences in this regard where you found this kind of material relevant. Similarities, differences, remaining questions, etc. If you are so inclined.

On a more abstract / philosophical level I see both you and Shooter applying constructivist learning in a lot more fundamental way than what I've seen most MA teachers do. As you probably know, constructivism uses ideally each learners (or students) personal experience and knowledge as a starting point for all new learning. In MA context, this could simply mean, that if a person can't relax their shoulder when the arm is hanging loosely, they probably can't relax that shoulder in more difficult movements, like throwing a punch. So they should first learn the relaxation in a movement (or position) that's familiar and easy, and then gradually try to apply it to the more difficult action of throwing a punch.

I'm partly repeating here how I read your text, filling in with some of my own thoughts.

As I understand, finding the technique through the persons natural reaction means, that you just found a base that's familiar to them. The movement they used is natural to them, shows their current experience, and is a great platform for progress. When they learn to perceive that movement from a different perspective (gradual introduction of ideas for improvement) they find ways to make it better. So from the start, they are not learning a move that's "new", copying some form without real understanding, but they're improving something they know, in ways that they understand. Which means on each repetition, they actually recognize things they do "wrong" and how to correct those things. When they have an experience of "better" and "worse" quality in that movement, (eg. "i tensed my shoulder", "i was leaning too much", ...) instead of just a verbal/visual example of a more "correct" way of performing, they actually have means for self-correction. They're not striving for some abstract ideal, but have very physical experience and understanding of how to fix their "technique".

When the movement can be done in easier circumstances (very slowly, with very little pressure, ...) the speed/pressure can be adjusted to find the breaking points. When they're located, there's new understanding of what can be fixed and how. So adjusting difficulty enables the student to recognize where & how his technique breaks, and now probably also recognize the same problems in the slower/easier movement. Moving back & forth with the difficulty level helps recognize problems, fix them in slower work, re-test them with more faster, then increase the pressure until new problems re-surface, go back to lower, fix them etc.

Chris, Is this a fair repetition of what you said? This would reflect quite well what I've been using mostly in solo-work, but to some extent in pair-training.

In the systema-group I trained the slow training was of course one of the main tools, but I feel the gradual adjustment of speed/pressure wasn't really applied. The instructor did it instinctively some of the time, but it wasn't systematic (pun not intended) and IMO wasn't recognized as part of the learning method.

Where I've felt the benefit of these kinds of methods are learning basic relaxation/structure/... mostly on solo training, as that's what 80-90% of my practice is, but some pair drills also. An example of progression in improving relaxation could be:
- learning to relax your shoulder when somebody else lifts/moves your arm
- learning to keep shoulder/arm relaxed (loose) when moving the body, moving/tensing other arm, shoulder, ...
- learning to throw impulsively the arm forward in a relaxed manner (no "return", arm stays relaxed and drops to a natural position) from parallel position, stance-ish position. Learning to notice & eliminate delay between visual/auditive stimulus and reaction.
- throwing the arm, returning it
- same, but making a good fist on impact.
- same, but keeping hand in fist from beginning
...
In other words, first offering an experience of relaxation, and tools to recognize the state of relaxation of the shoulder. Then gradually make the movement more difficult, so that with progress, the drills can be made more difficult. The key word is experience, as without a solid basis for recognizing the goal and ways to fix the problems. IME this method provides results a lot faster than traditional "punch like this, and try to do it in a relaxed manner".. It's just lacking the tools of adjusting the difficulty, recognize the proprioceptic feedback etc.

IME this kind of training accelerates the learning, as it eliminates blind repeating ("punch the air 10000 times"), providing a way to make each of those 10.000 punch a learning experince.

In pair-training an example could be training structure in thai-clinch. Both have their hands behind their partners head, leveraging with the elbow against the sternum. Both try to break the other persons structure. When it's broken from A, A can say "stop", and B stops, keeping pressure, but gives A time to fix his structure. Both trainers can decide where to say "stop", in the early stages of the structure breaking, or when it's more broken.

Same idea can be used in a wrestling-style grip drill, where you try to "swim" in to the other persons grip. Eg. face to face, A has right arm behind the left elbow of B, and left arm behind B's right shoulder. B is in holding the same position. Both are trying to get a control of the arms middle body. If B is stronger/more skilled, he should adjust the pressure so, that A is on his limits, providing a good environment to finding the problems and fixing them. The information about structure gained from this drill should be transferred to other drills. The strength comes mainly from good alignment, and if you don't keep good alignment/structure, you'll feel like you're run down/crushed. The difficulty is keeping the pressure on a level that maximizes learning, brings out errors slowly enough so that they can be recognized and fixed. If the pressure/speed is too great, the errors come out so fast it's difficult to recognize and almost impossible to fix them.

IME this kind of structural training provides much feedback, and really makes the structure develop fast. It also gives a lot of material (errors etc) to use in other drills. One requirement for this kind of training is that the person is able to recognize their own structure and when it brakes, to be able to recognize (relatively fast) the minimum effort needed and ability to scale down to close to that at will. There is no "technique" as such that's being taught, just a method of letting the body recognize what works and what doesn't. The techniques seem to come naturally, when the usage of the body improves.

After 15+ years of MA training, for the last 6 months i've been focusing with these kinds of methods are relaxation, alignment, elimination of unnecessary preparation of movement, coordinated whole-body tension (only tension that creates/supports a movement, eliminating "static" tension), explosive movement with fast & alternation of relaxation/tension. These qualities have transferred very well to all the old techniques, and I feel with this kind of training I've made more progress in 6 months than maybe 5 years of other training (including IMA). So I'm very sure these things work, I'm just having difficulty explaining the methods... might be also that a lot of the knowledge is still tacit, and hasn't been made conscious.

The main point I'm trying to make is the basis has to be in experiencing the qualitative difference. If that experience exists, it can be applied with gradual adjustment of difficulty, to create experiences of where that quality gets worse. So an experiential understanding of the goal, the problem and the tools to correct the problem exist. These three together provide effective means to accelerate learning. IMO often the problem is that the goal is unclear as the "base-experience" of the learner is too far from the material being taught. So a lot of guessing and walking blind happens, and progress is slow.

Chris, Shooter, do you understand what i'm trying to express? Do you see similarities with your methods?

[D_Glenn]

from ~ http://www.dojoofthefourwinds.com/sparring.html
Slow Sparring Game Of Russian Martial Arts
Arthur Sennott

One of the unique and most important training methods of Systema is the use of a slow motion type of sparring. This sparring game is perhaps the primary physical training device that leads us to combat proficiency, as it allows us to integrate our individual skills, while learning to utilize them in coordination with an opponent. It is an incredibly useful and powerful training tool, but like any other training device, drill or practice, it must be done correctly, in order to instill the desired skills and abilities. Though the aforementioned game is practiced in slow motion, it has several aspects that can be difficult for beginners to deal with. The majority of difficulties stem not from an inability to play the game itself, but from a misunderstanding of its principles and goals. This article will clarify those issues and discuss the primary keys to making correct use of the slow sparring game.

The Premise

The basic premise of the Slow Sparring Game (SSG) is to create an environment where all technical aspects of hand to hand combat can be explored in relative safety, while providing the body a chance to execute and cultivate true spontaneity. To facilitate this, the SSG must be viewed as a slow motion representation of combat.

One must forget that they are in slow motion, movements and reactions must be made as though the participants were moving at full speed. This requires a certain amount of "play acting" on the participants parts. It is important however to realize that this acting, in contrast with the common association with the word, creates more reality, rather than less. When moving at a slow speed, movement and balance will manifest differently than they would at full speed. This should be readily apparent to anyone who has ever driven a car. A sharp corner that can be navigated safely at 30 MPH would surely flip the car at 80 MPH. As it is with cars, it is with humans. When playing the SSG, we must always keep that in mind, and commit to moving "as if" we were going full speed. All movements should be made as if you were on videotape at full speed, but played back in slow motion.

Keeping It Real

When playing any training game, whether it be at full or slow speed, it is vital to keep it as real as possible, while still abiding by the rules of the game. You must commit the "attack" as if it were completely real. You must act with an intent to really hit your partner. You must follow through trying to put power into the blow. You must make all the same physical and mental actions that you would if you were really determined hurt your opponent.

There is an innate tendency to want to try to help your training partner. This is in itself good, but unfortunately it can lead to several behaviors that are a hindrance to training. In an effort to subconsciously help their partner it is common for people to punch off center, or not follow through with their strike. While this may indeed help one's partner avoid being hit in training, it will not teach him about defending himself. All attacks must be made accurately, with intent, and full follow through. If safety is a concern, then the speed can always be lowered so as to create a higher safety control.

In contrast to the subconscious need to help your partner, there is a complementary tendency and inner desire to thwart him as well. You should be on guard for this in yourself. Remember, the attacker's role is to play the part of an opponent who wants to hurt the defender. The intent to attack, and the intent to foil, are two very different things. Each of those intentions creates its own set of movements and relationships. Make sure to give your opponent the appropriate intent for the training exercise you are doing.

Altered Physics Cheat 1

Increasing the speed of an attack is a common cheat, which people sub-consciously resort too. It can seemingly wreak havoc on the defender, giving an illusion of the attackers success. Of course he has not really succeeded in anything but fooling himself, and undermining his partner's confidence.

One simply cannot speed up anymore than they can go at their fastest speed. So when participating in training exercises at lowered speeds, one must maintain the same general velocity they begin their movement with. If the attacker were moving at full speed, he could not have suddenly increased the speed of his attack. The tactic is not existent at real speed, and must therefore be avoided in slow motion.

Likewise, moving quickly and then suddenly slowing down, is less than realistic and should be avoided. It generally causes the same problems in the SSG, and only serves to retard progress.

It should be noted that in real speed combat there are ways of changing the speed of your attack, but these are specific skills that are different from merely taking advantage of the slowed pace. At a more advanced level it is expected that partners will make use of pace changes, but they must always be in accord with the laws of physics as applied to full speed movement.

Altered Physics Cheat 2

In addition to simple changes of velocity, another frequently made mistake is unrealistic changes in trajectory. Remember that our rule is "anything that happens in slow motion, has to be indicative of reality." Therefore, any change in the attack line a participant makes, must be possible for that person when moving at full speed.

When moving in slow motion, it is theoretically possible for me to start my motion on one plane along a specific trajectory and then radically and abruptly change direction, approximating a "zigzag" effect. This can create quite an intimidating fake or feint. However, a movement such as this is not consistent with reality and the laws governing fast motion. It must therefore be removed from the SSG.

At full speed, one would have to make use of elliptical paths to change the trajectory of a strike. For our game to be of benefit, this same limitation must be inserted into the slowed movements. In other words, we must "act" as if it is impossible to move in a zigzag manner. When training in slow motion, everything has to be reflective of that which you can do in reality. Otherwise it's a false training habit. It's false for you, and it's false for your partner.

Altered Physics Cheat 3

The last common "physics cheat" that frequently occurs is when the defender moves faster than the attacker. When participating in SSG, it is very easy to simply move faster than your attacker. After all, he is moving in slow motion. However, doing this, is of course taking advantage of the artificial part of the game, and thus renders the game invalid. The reality is that many real life attackers may and probably will be faster than you. Building your technique around the idea of being faster than the opponent will only serve to decrease your chances of using your art in a real confrontation. We must always train to beat the superior opponent, and thus train in a way that assumes our opponent has better attributes and abilities than we do.

Therefore, if one partner is defending, and the attacker initiates at turtle speed, then the defender must react at turtle speed, or even slower. When he's moving full speed, I'll be moving full speed, and I can't rely on speeding myself up even more so as to deal with his attack. Remember, you "cannot move faster than you can already go."

Therefore, your "technique" must not be based upon speed, but angle, sensitivity and an understanding of the opponent's capabilities. If I can defend against him no matter how fast he is going, and I can move slowly, while he's doing that, then I'll be able to defend myself no matter how fast my opponent is.

Slow Movement As A Training Aid

When training, one of the primary things that we want to do is move at a speed where we can learn. In the process of trying to improve, we want learn new things and develop new skills. We don't want to just regurgitate old things that we already know. This is especially important to those who have previous martial arts experience, before coming to The System.

Whenever engaging in any type of freeform training, it is all too easy to revert back to that which we already know. If that happens when you come to Systema class, all your doing is practicing your old art. Systema class is of course, for leaning, and practicing Systema. So we need to make sure that is what comes out.

This is done by moving slowly enough, that your stress response does not engage. You need to train only as fast as you can, while still eliciting Systema responses. Once non-Systema responses come out, you are moving too fast to make further progress. At that point you are no longer learning, and are thus, no longer training. It is imperative that you recognize that point and immediately slow down to a level where you are once again truly training.

In essence we want to achieve what has popularly become known as "the state of flow." The state of flow is a zone in which optimal mental and emotional experience takes place. When in "the flow," learning increases, performance increases and joy from the activity is experienced. According to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, the father of "Flow Theory," to achieve a state of "flow," the task must be easy enough to be accomplished correctly, but sufficiently difficult to require concentration and effort. The smaller the window between these two criteria, the more pure and powerful the flow experience will be. This narrow window is where optimal training takes place, and is therefore the state you wish to aim for in playing the SSG.

Slow Motion As Vision Enhancement

In addition to training at a pace where Systema responses come out, you should train at a speed where you elicit new Systema responses. If you find yourself repeatedly doing the same movement in response to a given attack, you need to once again slow down. If you find yourself reverting to the same type of movement repeatedly, you are no longer being creative and spontaneous; you are resorting to "technique" and are thus, not practicing Systema.

It is important that you train in a way that allows you to constantly see new opportunities. Learning to see opportunities is one of the things that will allow you to constantly improvise and adapt, making it possible to deal with whatever an opponent might throw at you.

Each time a punch comes in work slowly enough that you can see how your partner is off-balance, how he can resist, what he can attack with next. Allow yourself the opportunity to see what you can do to make him fall down, or what you can do to hit him where he cannot defend himself. By working in this manner, you will gain and see improvement. You will get better, and gain new skills.

If you work any faster than that, at best all you will accomplish is to cement in the skills, reactions and possibly fears that you already have. In the worst case scenario, you will make yourself less effective. Don't let your training lead to regression, rather than progression.

Copyright 2000 Arthur Sennott, All rights Reserved

In the above article in place of "Systema responses" insert "your martial art's" techniques.

This article led into other articles following the same concept, of which I can't find the sources now, but essentially it's a pretty basic teaching method.

The goal is to keep something simple enough to learn, yet complex enough to be interesting, but not too complex to freeze up or revert to previously known skills or skills that are more complex and sophisticated for the current practice. So timed drills of about 2 - 5 minutes are used where a practice progresses from very simple/mundane to increasingly complex. For example say: 1st exercise - fixed step, 1 handed push hands, 1 person pushes the other absorbs, then switch. It's timed and observed to see when the state of flow is lost then the difficulty is marginally increased. Eventually the timed sessions would end with say: moving steps, both hands, free-form push hands. The instructor can observe the skill levels of students as they 'wash-out' at differing levels of complexities. The skill required from the instructor is structuring all the Art's techniques into different training sessions, each with progressing levels of difficulty. Like an only kicking practice session or only straight punching session, etc.


I think some of the most interesting things about the modern research into how to teach and learn a complex system of Martial Art actually ends up being very similar to the strict traditional methods of ancient Asian styles that we typically discard and look down upon.


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