Why did you pick up CMA for health?

[64Palms]

Why do you equate a small waist line and ability to lift weights with health - where did you obtain this idea?

The small waist line means that you still have waist flexibility. As long as your waist (the center of your body) is still flexible, your age won't affect your physical body. Also slim waist line means that you are not over weight. Weight training can increase your bone density so when you get old, your body won't shrink. The lung and heart capacity determine your endurance which is the main issue for survive.

This is fair enough - but do you think that Chinese martial arts (referring to internal martial arts) won't give you waist felxibility? I agree that obesity should be avoided - as this can bring an amount of health issues up but to be completely ripped or "skinny", in my opinion and experience, is not an ideal goal for health. Your natural weight should be maintained - as long as you know what that is. Weight training is good - but not in an excessive way - as this will actually be detrimental to your joints and tissues. I guess one needs to train smart. Lung capacity and heart health are readibly maintainable through lower abdominal breathing and diaphragmatic expansion - most times this type of breathing will allow oxygen to reach the depths of your lungs and a greater breath is acheived, this in turn will lead to better lung / heart interaction, oxygen in your blood and brain, better mental clarity etc - especially as age catches up with you and so on. Both are good methods - some just suit certain people better, i guess.

[klonk]

Tai chi and zhan zhuang are good medicine against stress.

[Chanchu]

Its a lot of fun and a very benificial thing for me- true its martial arts not chi kung but the residual health benfits of
TCMA are vast and beyond anthing you can find in western exercise imo.

It is interesting and fun- not boring western exercise is boring- gd boring..

If I run- dog will be chasing me.
If I lift weights- I will be unloading a truck and someone will be paying me

Western Physical Medicine people are now trying to intergrate things such ase TCC and Chi Kung ,Yoga etc into their therapy's because they see that such training methods have worth- beyond what they have.

That's been my experiance.

"He belives that CMA and related Qigong practice are far superior than any Western sports and common exercises."

Agree totally with this..

[SPJ]

Yes, first and foremost for me is FUN.

not only the physical parts.

(even thou standing in postures and repeating the moves over and over are kind of boring, however, they quiet my minds or remove daily emotions and worries from my mind, I may only focus or immerse myself just to "do" stuff with my body.)

but also the tactics and strategy really intrigued me.

I guess we all have own reasons or motivation to do things.

[Walter Joyce]

I didn't pick up CMA for health, I started studying CMA for increased fighting ability, and I loved the way good CMA stylists moved.

I found out that the physical discipline and understanding of the body that was at the root of it, especially in ba gua and taiji, were also good for health, and its a nice added benefit, especially as I get older.

I also believe that if I was training in these disciplines when I was younger I wouldn't have the few physical problems I do have as a result of my quest for the ability to deliver power in my techniques.

[Darthwing Teorist]

I agree with Darth. Martial Arts in general are a very good all around exercice that improve many of our abilities. Maybe we do not have the stamina of an Iron Man contestant or the power of a powerlifter, but these are highly specialized domains.

However, any physical activity that you are not used to do, you will find it dificult even if you are in "great shape". That means that if you take a marathon guy and make him do sparring he will be very tired (excluding the fact that he may get hurt). My KF teacher was giving lessons to a couple of professional hockey players. He made one stand in the Wing Chun stance for 10 or 15 minutes. It was harder for him that he thought: he started to sweat quite a lot, which surprised him (being a professional athlete).

Anyway, martial arts give a balanced mental and physical training. You also get some spiritual benefits, depending on how you practice them. There is also a practical side to them. For me this all around thing was a seller since I was not interested in sports just for the sake of sports. I wanted to do something practical, which is why I like things like biking, wall climbing, swimming and hiking. Also, martial arts helped me improve my abilities a lot: I gained power, stamina and balance. Also good biomechanics which are actually a skill that is transferable to most other physical activities. Also, I learned how to learn and I noticed that good teachers have a similar style, no matter if they teach martial arts, shooting or driving.

Now, it all comes to your interest: if you are interested and motivated enough to pursue an activity to a high level (compared to when you started), then you will gain a lot out of it, no matter if it is martial arts, running or needling.

Coming back to the physical aspect, things like having a small waistline while in general may indicate good health, they are not always true. I know plenty of slim people out of shape and who have the flexibility of an icicle. I have also seen a few fat people that are very flexible. There was the case of an Iron Man winner that despite his best efforts, could not lose any weight. He was fat, but he was winning triathlons and I think even Iron Men.

[xingyijuan]

It's amazing what a different perspective in training can change. My story is more of a change from EMA to IMA.

I used to train very hard when I was with the Vietnamese Wing Chun class. Firstly, the warm up included a lot of conditioning, long ma bu stances, long series of push ups, sit ups; long series of kicks, punches and footwork; then we would work on forms. This was regular class that I attended from 3 to 4 times a week. Plus, we had our "Gladiator" saturdays, where we would train mostly for sparring. These training sessions, which included the usual stuff plus a series of 100m sprints, skip rope, boxing, extra coditioning, hand drills, footwork drills and, of course, sparring, could last up to 6h. This went on for about three years.

Now, the thing is, at that point, I was on the heavy side. My weight was around 200-210 lbs and I felt that no matter what, I could never get under that. When I switched to Xing-yi, I was a bit worried since classes only last 1h30/2 to 3 time a week, and that cosiderable time was spent on breaks. When I asked Mr. Yang about it, he answered that he believed that you should train in a relaxed way and that with physical fatigue came bad habits, so you should always be rested when you practice. Now, since I've started, I lost weight and stay around a stable 185-190 lbs, my muscular structure has developed in my arms, shoulders and pectoral region. My legs feel springy-er and can now move faster. My whole body has changed. Crazy, eh? Mr. Yang must be doing something right. But what? I have no clue!

J

[shawnsegler]

But what? I have no clue!

You should work on that.



S

[river rider]

physical fitness is not necessarily equivalent to health. I know people who are stronger,faster, more flexible etc than me who are not as healthy... they get sick more often, have physiological issues etc... and then there's mental health. IMAs first caught my attention by offering to address health issues in ways that surpassed mere exercise. This is not to deny physical fitness's undeniable role in health. I guess a major theme for me is working on and with the body/mind connection and conciously addressing some of my own specific somatic problems with things like knees, breathing, thyroid issues... hell, I'm 60 now and paying the price of all my old bad habits. one of my measures of success is when my doctor scratches his head and opines that he has no idea how I got better, or why I didn't get worse since I didn't follow his advice or take his meds. and the martial content of my practice isn't too bad, my job involves "working the street" still (not a desk job) and I get into confrontations and manage adequately (getting your ass kicked is certainly unhealthy)... in sum, in many ways I'm healthier now than 20 years ago, and give taiji most of the credit. BTW I've always been physically active... camp, hike, canoe, dive, did wrestling and karate, built my own house etc... so it's not that I was lacking physical exercise before doing taiji

[Darth Rock&Roll]

hey now...I'm 44 and i still do shaolin.

It is vigorous, but not all of it, there is plenty of qigong and some slow sets that combine qigong with martial moves.
Not too mention, it has zen!

anyway, just saying that shaolin can be practiced throughout your whole life.

My own sifu's sifu for bak sil lum was well into his 60's and could still do the BSL with relative ease, same with my Sil Lum sifu who will be entering his sixties soon. His BSL is still pretty sharp from what I hear these days although he focuses more on Black Tiger in my remembrance of how things are.

[SitYodTong]

I came back to IMA because I was feeling burned out from years of hard training in Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA etc. -- so I already know how to fight and long since gained the ability to defend myself. I started doing BGZ and TJQ again to heal my old injuries and to give me a different perspective on the arts.

[Interloper]

John wrote:
When I'm thinking about health, I'm think about:

- Strong lung and heart through running.
- Small waist line through sitting up.
- Strong muscle through weight lifting.
- ...

CMA will not be on my health list for the following reasons. Even great CMA masters may not be able to:

- Run 24 miles none stop.
- have small waist line through form training.
- lift up 240 lb weight.
- ...

So what's the health benefit that you can obtain from CMA that you can't obtain from:

- Ballroom dancing?
- Tennis?
- Basket ball?
- ...

It seems to me that regular health exercise can help CMA but may not the other way around.

- After I had serious running training, I could feel that my solo form training became effortless.
- Even I was in good shape in CMA training, it still took me more than 6 months before I could even finish a 12 miles running nonstop.

Do you feel the same way or your experience are different from mine?
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"Health" and "physcial fitness" are two different things, though interconnected. Good health is the absence of illness; physical fitness is the ability of the body to do mechanical work to whatever level you train for.

That aside, I don't look at my MA as sport, but as a way to learn the most efficient and effective ways to beat an opponent in combat. In addition to the martial methods, tactics and strategies I train in, all of which are very physical, I also train to:
1. Make myself unthrowable and unlockable
2. Make myself capable of using my body structure to control my opponent's body
3. Be able to punch and strike with great power even when on the ground
4. Be able to direct my body mass and center at will, even when someone is trying to set up a throw
5. Apply all of these skills martially
6. Practice combat applications under increasing levels of psychological and physical intensity

In short, I'm a martial artist, not a sports athlete. I'm interested in honing my skills for martial/combat application. Why would I take ballroom dancing to do that? Wrong kind of partner-training.

You wouldn't use a thoroughbred racehorse to pull a plough, or a Belgian draft horse to run the Preakness. Each is bred and trains for its own purpose.

The way you train is the way you fight.

In the process of training -- using increasing levels of intensity for both internal/solo work, partners training and sparring -- one develops aerobic and anaerobic cardiovascular, pulmonary and neuromuscular fitness, as well as increased bone density.

Some "grandmasters" may not be able to run a marathon or bench press 300 lbs, but why would they care? Even some very elderly martial artists can retain their body "awareness" and structure because that is kind of like riding a bicycle: once you've wired your system, it remembers how to maintain structure, produce fajin, and move in a unified way, even though the person may be muscularly and cardiovascularly out of shape, or frail due to illnesses that have nothing to do with physical fitness.

Sagawa Yukiyoshi, purported to have internal ("aiki") skills of the highest level in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, was said to have been able to throw his students around even when he was on his deathbed. He was in no shape to run 24 miles, but he could kick ass, even when he was dying.

That's a martial artist, not an athlete.

[SitYodTong]

What it comes down to, IMHO, is that it is next to impossible to become truly proficient at the basic skills of MA--punching, kicking, clinhwork (including knees, elbow strikes and throws/ takedowns) and groundfighting without testing yourself in a sport setting. Without going "live" against a skilled and resisting opponent you will end up stagnating and will never progress beyond a certain point. The fact that you don't train with your opponent and the pressure of competition adds another level of difficultly--now you're forced to deal with fear (of losing, looking bad, etc.) , the adrenaline dump caused by being watched by a few hundred to a few thousand people, and an opponent is intent on beating you.

Is sport fighting the be-all and end-all of martial arts? Of course not. It's a tool, and in my admitted biased view, an extremely important one. Many if not most sport fighters I work with come from a TMA background and most still consider themselves martial artists first and fighters second.

I do beleive that every martial art has some value, but I also think the CMA and IMA's in particular have suffered from a lack of useful training modalities, at least in the modern versions of these arts. 100 years ago bagua practicioners were doing plyometrics, lifting weights, using heavy bags and double-end bags (sort of). The martial artists of yesteryear trained more like today's fighters--and as such they could use their skills. And yes, many of them competed in challenge matches and tournaments. Today...not so much.

[Interloper]

I'm not sure I agree with that, SYT -- that you need a sport setting to test combat skills. Granted, you have to be careful, and can't kill or maim your training partners (though accidents happen), but you can simulate the psychological and physical stressors in escalating amounts.

Sport has rules; combat has no rules. It's too easy to ingrain rule-based responses and reactions to the extent that we play by those rules on the street. So, we have to find ways to provide the neuromuscular-emotional pressures that trigger not competitive instincts, but kill-survive instinct. I don't believe you can do that through sport-style applications.

[somatai]

"As long as your waist (the center of your body) is still flexible, your age won't affect your physical body."

QFT!