Chinese origin/influence on Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

[Dmitri]

Elliot, I suggest you contact Dan Harden. Hopefully he will find the time to meet an show you in person what Interloper was trying to convey here in writing.

Here's one account of someone meeting him: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11178

[Josealb]

I dont get it. Someone comes to a Hamburger place to question why a burger is so much better than a hotdog, and ends up trying to explain and convince people that hotdogs are the best.

What i dont get is this...Why the hell doest he go ahead and try the damned burger? One bite is worth a thousand answers.

[C.J.Wang]

Well, from reading the aiki web dicussion Dmitri posted, it seems that no matter how many skeptics are turned into converts, there will still be more skeptics. This reminds me of the Chinese saying that some people just "don't cry until they see the coffin" -- referring to those who'd rather be convinced the hard way than the easy, gentle way.

Why is it that people who have the superior skills are obligated to demonstrate, teach, and convince those who disbelieve and disparage?

With the same line of reasoning, if I was a millionaire, why would I want to share my wealth with someone calls me a liar and a charlatan? I'd only give money to those who are sincere and faithful in me in the fist place and asking for a "donation." The same should apply to the transmission of MA skills.

[Dmitri]

Why is it that people who have the superior skills are obligated to demonstrate, teach, and convince those who disbelieve and disparage?

They're not, of course. At least not the way you put it above...
A meeting with someone even as open-minded and generous with his knowledge as Dan would at the very least have to have a prerequisite of not being an ass.

[Dmitri]

Too much coffee, Tom?

[dragontigerpalm]

I dont get it. Someone comes to a Hamburger place to question why a burger is so much better than a hotdog, and ends up trying to explain and convince people that hotdogs are the best.

What i dont get is this...Why the hell doest he go ahead and try the damned burger? One bite is worth a thousand answers.

Because he's a wiener.

[klonk]

I doubt we will find a smoking gun, so to speak, indicating a relationship of Chinese arts to Daito ryu. The historic record is pretty well muddled by time and secrecy. We might get some indiction, though, by asking what role kiko has in the development of skills. If I have this right, kiko is how Japanese people say qigong. Following my theory that IMA is weaponized qigong, it would be at least suggestive of Chinese influence if similar exercises were used for similar purposes...

[edededed]

"Kiko" is just the Japanese reading of the Chinese characters for "qigong" (much as "gigong" is the Korean reading of the same). As such, it is a word describing a Chinese practice, not native Japanese practices.

I would be interested to hear of some kind of Daito-ryu method that is similar to standing exercises (zhanzhuang) or sitting meditation work (jingzuo) or so on as in CIMA, though.

[Muad'dib]

I am not going to bother reading this whole thread. Okay, actually I will, but the quick question I have before pouring over the 11 pages is this:

Are we talking about

1) The mythical daito-ryu taught to my children's ancestor, Yoshitsune, by the Tengu?
2) The mythical daito-ryu used or perhaps not used by Ueshiba as a basis for aikido (along with bagua)?
3) Any of the five currently popular schools of Daito-Ryu with dubious claims to legitimacy tied to either choice 1) or choice 2)?

Cuz until we figure out the BS on the Japanese side, it will be hard to add extra BS about the Chinese involvement.

[I-mon]

despite the various myths, i think it is generally agreed that what is now known as daito ryu started with Takeda Sokaku. what it was developed from is part of what is being discussed here.

whether the "internal skills" are part of some system or culture of ancient knowledge or whether people will inevitably come up with the same skills due to their being somehow wired into us already, is another question which inevitably comes up.

[Interloper]

From what I've read over the years, it is probable that Takeda himself got his underlying skills from the koryu arts practiced by his ancestral clan and from selected teachers (Stan Pranin's book on Daito-ryu provides a chronicle of Sokaku's training history), and also trained in old-style sumo (which was reputed to have had aiki... which contemporary sumo does not). Since one does not create something from nothing/a vacuum, it's obvious that Takeda synthesized DR from his own interpretation and tweaking of the lexicon of systematic skills he'd acquired.

It's the provenance of the aiki in those ancestral arts that is the mystery, which brings us full circle to the original question of... did it come from China?

[C.J.Wang]

People normally associate Sumo with Japan, but in reality, Sumo tradition dates back to Qin and Han Dynasty-- over 200 years ago -- in China. The Kanji for Sumo actually was synanomous with wrestling at the time in China and appeared in historical record. It's also been proven that there was cultural interaction between Japan and China during Han Dynasty.

http://www.shwenyi.com.cn/renda/shwl/node4174/u1a1455710.html

Scroll down the page and check out ancient artworks depicting big guys with tied hair wrestling each other in loincloths.

[Muad'dib]

Interesting about the big guys, because to my understanding, sumo did not originally focus on "big" as a method of winning until later in its development, and there are always people like Terao and Mainoumi who focus on use of speed and position and have done well in the upper ranks.

[Interloper]

With internal skills in the old-school sumo (or its alleged Chinese antecedent ), smaller guys would have been contenders. Size and body mass are an advantage, but internal power and the ability to shift center and body mass -- which were apparently present "back in the day" -- provide another kind of tactical edge.

[Muad'dib]

Back in the day for that sort of thing is as long ago as the 1960's.