Chinese origin/influence on Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

[DeusTrismegistus]

Wait a minute Interloper, you already knew the answer to your Mifune question when you asked it? Holy cow, you are one tricky customer!

Just a word of advice, if I were you, I'd try to refrain from explaining what a Judoka like Mifune does by saying it doesn't involve leverage. When you completely miss the obvious, you lose your credibility.

You are tricky though!

Leverage by itself does not explain everything Mifune could do. Leverage is only one part. Many Judoka know how to use leverage to their advantage very well. I know men who can hold 120 lbs at arms length with one hand off the ground, it takes more than leverage by itself when you are that size to beat someone who is that strong.

[C.J.Wang]

Judo has tens of thousands practioners worldwide, along with high-ranking blackbelts and Olympians in just about evert country who, more than likely, are all very well-versed in how to apply basic scientific concepts such as leverage to their art. If leverage is the only element invovled, isn't it kind of strange that there seems to be no one who has the ability to neutralize throws in the same ways that Mifune did?

[Johnny Drama]

I gotta be honest. Some of the footage Mifune has doesn't look real to me. It looks like his students are taking it easy on him and not launching him when he does that uh...flying stuff. By all accounts though he was the real deal, and they don't just hand out tenth dans. I don't know what to think.

[klonk]

I'm not a judoka, so my comments are suspect, but does it not look like he is rather hanging on them like a cape, dragging their efforts, being a burden to his captor? He won't play judo. That's what made him great.

That is the core tactic of tai chi, put on the brakes, be a party pooper, never play the other fellow's game.

[Josealb]

Would it be fair to say that Mifune understood judo to such a high degree that he became a specialist on how to neutralize it? But if understanding judo is all that it takes....then why arent there a dozen Mifune's?

[Interloper]

Would it be fair to say that Mifune understood judo to such a high degree that he became a specialist on how to neutralize it? But if understanding judo is all that it takes....then why arent there a dozen Mifune's?

I'd say that's a fair statement. Anything that can be done, can be undone and reversed. But it requires a deeper body knowledge and dynamic than just leverage.

[Elliot]

Deus wrote:
"Leverage by itself does not explain everything Mifune could do. Leverage is only one part. Many Judoka know how to use leverage to their advantage very well. I know men who can hold 120 lbs at arms length with one hand off the ground, it takes more than leverage by itself when you are that size to beat someone who is that strong."

Could you please explain what else (besides leverage and momentum) Mifune uses to beat people that strong? Thanks.

Klonk,
Your comments are dead on accurate.

Jose,
Why aren't there a dozen Michael Jordans, Tiger Woods or Wayne Gretzkys? Among the elite, there are occasionally the super-elite. Do you think Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods have some kind of mystical, inexplicable super powers that make them the best at what they do? Being the best of the best at throwing people requires no more mysterious internal power/aiki that being the best of the best at hitting a golf ball.

Interloper,
I had no problem explaining how it all works with leverage, timing and body control, could you please explain how Mifune does what he does with "a deeper body knowledge and dynamic than just leverage." Thanks.

[Dmitri]

Being the best of the best at throwing people requires no more mysterious internal power/aiki that being the best of the best at hitting a golf ball.

There's one huge fundamental difference between interacting with a golf ball vs. interacting with a human being.

[Interloper]

Interloper,
I had no problem explaining how it all works with leverage, timing and body control, could you please explain how Mifune does what he does with "a deeper body knowledge and dynamic than just leverage." Thanks.

It's not worth it to me to take the time and effort to explain it to you, Elliot, because you're a rude, ill-spirited person who does not mean well. And as qiphlow mentioned, you've already made up your mind anyway, so what's the point. OTOH, I'd happily train with Dmitri anyday.

Good luck with your training.

[klonk]

Would it be fair to say that Mifune understood judo to such a high degree that he became a specialist on how to neutralize it? But if understanding judo is all that it takes....then why arent there a dozen Mifune's?

This touches on something I've been wondering in context of taiji, whether taijiquan is forty or so different tricks, or the same trick every time, expressed forty or so different ways. If we take the latter view, it becomes possible to generalize from the particulars and apply the concept flexibly.

Judo looks pretty complicated, but someone who is a real genius at it might manage to abstract the principles and adapt them on the fly. Is that what Mifune was up to? I don't know, but I suppose it could be so. I'm not even at the point of doing it reliably with taiji, a simpler art by the look of it.

If this kind of scheme is to work, it must work by feel not thought; there is not enough time in a fight for much cogitation, things happen too fast. It must work on the basis of honed sensitivity and ingrained shen fa.

[klonk]

Being the best of the best at throwing people requires no more mysterious internal power/aiki that being the best of the best at hitting a golf ball.

There's one huge fundamental difference between interacting with a golf ball vs. interacting with a human being.

You aren't going to say, are you, that a golf ball doesn't fight back? In my experience it is a damnably tricky opponent.

[qiphlow]

... it must work by feel not thought; there is not enough time in a fight for much cogitation, things happen too fast. It must work on the basis of honed sensitivity and ingrained shen fa.

my thoughts exactly. this, i think, is a big reason for slow form play and plenty of push hands play. mix some good sparring practice in and you've got a really good combination.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Deus wrote:
"Leverage by itself does not explain everything Mifune could do. Leverage is only one part. Many Judoka know how to use leverage to their advantage very well. I know men who can hold 120 lbs at arms length with one hand off the ground, it takes more than leverage by itself when you are that size to beat someone who is that strong."

Could you please explain what else (besides leverage and momentum) Mifune uses to beat people that strong? Thanks.

Can you explain how to position your arm directly in front of you in such a way that a person will be incapable of pressing on the arm and causing it bend toward you while requiring very little muscular exertion on your part? Can you explain how when that person presses on your arm they are actually exerting force on your center or even the floor? I can't explain everything Mifune was doing because I have never been thrown by him and I am not him. I am surprised you think that you can tell what he is doing, you must be some kind of judo master or something...

Interloper I agree with you, this guy is a lost cause.

[Elliot]

Ah well Interloper, I guess I shouldn't have hoped for any better answer. In my "great wisdom" I suppose I was as rude and mean spirited as you were a smart ass.

The fear reactive responses from several of the posters here I've run into before when asking people about the whys of their religious beliefs. Honest questions being answered by "you are closed minded." Outstanding.

My thanks to those who made an honest effort to explain what is meant by internal power.

To the rest of you, keep the faith boys.

[klonk]

Arrogance and incompetence are two words for the same thing.