Chinese origin/influence on Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?

[kal]

There seems to have been a lot of speculation over the years that Morihei Ueshiba learned Chinese martial arts (like bagua) while in China, and that he used this in creating his Aikido. However, this idea seems to have been debunked by researchers.

On the other hand, there are some new and interesting theories that CMA may have had some influence on Daito Ryu (the parent art of Aikido). Some lines of Daito Ryu seem to contain very interesting types of solo training that develop internal power. This seems to be quite unusual for Japanese jujutsu schools, which tend to stress mainly partnered kata.

There is a whole school of thought that says the reason none of Ueshiba's students ever reached his level was because they were not passed the internal or solo training that he got from Sokaku Takeda. This might sound like the usual hype and nonsense, but there may actually be something to it when you hear that other Takeda students like Yukiyoshi Sagawa also got these kinds of abilities.

Does anyone know what the latest theories or research on this topic are? Are there any extant styles of kung fu that resemble Aikido or Aikijujutsu in their movements?

I remember Ellis Amdur wrote some very interesting articles a while back, but that seems to have gone quiet now. He seemed at one point to think there may have been a connection via Yoshin Ryu, which allegedly was developed by a doctor who learned Chinese martial arts. But later on that theory has appeared to fall out of favour.

Normally I am quite cynical about the whole notion that "all arts developed from Chinese arts" and I think it's way too oversimplified and quite arrogant too! But I think Daito Ryu might be an exception and that it may have *some* Chinese roots after all.

[Finny]

Mr. Amdur is compiling his research into a book, which will be released soon - 'Hidden in Plain Sight'

See his website - www.edgework.com

[C.J.Wang]

Given the large number of Koryu Jujitsu schools that once flourished in Japan and the deep cultural influence from the Chinese, I wouldn't be surprised if certain styles have their roots in CMA. Even so, the Japanese still deserve much credit for adopting and modifying the Chinese techniques to fit their needs and environment. The incorporation of ground fighting techniques, for example, is obviously pure Japanese ingenuity.

[Interloper]

I recall a Daito-ryu guy who was incredulous when told that a taiji master had demonstrated some of the same IMA skills as in the line of Daito-ryu he was training in. He thought that there was no way taiji could have anything that profound.
Eventually, he met a high-level taiji (and likely other CIMA-trained) master who had the power, along with several others who also had some degree of internal power and structure abilities, and at that point determined that CIMA could in fact have the sophisticated internal skills of Japanese Daito-ryu.

[klonk]

Given the large number of Koryu Jujitsu schools that once flourished in Japan and the deep cultural influence from the Chinese, I wouldn't be surprised if certain styles have their roots in CMA. Even so, the Japanese still deserve much credit for adopting and modifying the Chinese techniques to fit their needs and environment. The incorporation of ground fighting techniques, for example, is obviously pure Japanese ingenuity.

I agree with that. Another example of Japanese adaptation and development is a number of techniques that are applicable to fighting in full armor. If someone is all dressed up in a pile of metal plates, scale armor, lacquered leather and what all, punching him will not resolve your dispute, but a big throw might do the trick, especially if you can follow up on the ground.

[TaoBoxer]

I just finished reading "The Demons Sermon on Martial Arts." It is a William Scott Wilson (he also did Hagakure, Life Giving Sword, and the Gorin No Sho) translation of a treatise on Martial Arts taught to a Samurai by a Tengu. The Tengu goes on at length about Qi, the true nature of things, and Taoist thought. Chinese philosophy and Martial Arts had an early and profound influece in Japan and the RyuKyu archipeligo.

Lewitt

PS- Interestingly enough I have never heard the Osensei Ba Gua stories floated by any IMA people.... It has always been from the Aiki side. I remember in the old Aiki News there was an article about Ueshibas time in China teaching and converting for Omoto buddhism. I think it referenced this story and the time Ueshiba spent in jail in China.

[Josealb]

I think any group of people that live to train a martial art, emphasis on the word "martial", over a period of time or a number of generations, will start with a technique based system and then slowly develop a principle based practice that leads to higher skill levels. Its only logical that things get refined until theres only essence left.

This is why i think its completely possible that "internal skills" can take place outside of CMA. Take a look at systema, for a good example. Its a little sad though, that oldschool Koryu arts got a little lost and got replaced by mainstream Do arts.

[Interloper]

Given the large number of Koryu Jujitsu schools that once flourished in Japan and the deep cultural influence from the Chinese, I wouldn't be surprised if certain styles have their roots in CMA. Even so, the Japanese still deserve much credit for adopting and modifying the Chinese techniques to fit their needs and environment. The incorporation of ground fighting techniques, for example, is obviously pure Japanese ingenuity.

I agree with that. Another example of Japanese adaptation and development is a number of techniques that are applicable to fighting in full armor. If someone is all dressed up in a pile of metal plates, scale armor, lacquered leather and what all, punching him will not resolve your dispute, but a big throw might do the trick, especially if you can follow up on the ground.

"Big throws," sutemi-waza, pile-driving slams into the ground for which there is no breakfall. Some of the Japanese koryu such as Takenouchi-ryu (jujutsu) were based on that. And, attacks to the joints. It all comes from weapons vs. armor. Jujutsu attacks the joints and pivot points in the same ways as a bladed weapon; it's the empty-handed expression of weapons work.Weapons methodology was heavily influenced by the enemy's armor, as bladed weapons had to be wielded in vectors that targeted the unprotected joints (elbows, knees, wrists, etc.) --Japanese didn't have articulated armor-- and pivot points (waist, neck).

Internal skills and structure fuels all of that, not just adding power to the external applications, but also making the wielder less prone to being entered or thrown himself. I agree with Jose that the internal component doesn't belong solely to CMA; it is a body skillset that underlies a number of arts outside China, S. Takeda's version of DR included. But you're right, they are largely obscure now, maybe because of incomplete or incompentent transmission, or because those who really had it, held it close to the vest.

[Loci]

Tao Boxer I read the demons sermon on martial arts and it became like a bible to me beautiful. I lived in japan for four years and found that much of Japanese culture has come from outside japan and then been refined, modified and developed some how.

Take for example green tea that came from Korea and then the Japanese developed Sado, japanese kanji and hirigana was taken from china and modified. There is also the example of japanese I-Chuan I have forgotten what they call it now in japan, that was directly taken from china and I-Chuan and taken into the japanese context. lastly zen probably came to japan from Korea and china and again made into the particular japanese Zen

When watching the sublime movements of Morihei Ueshiba there does seem to be movements of ba gua there, but at the same time i am looking too much for the ba gua movements and if we look hard enough we can usually see what we are looking for.

What I wonder is why no-one has ever reached the level of Morihei, either he was a great master but not necessarily a good teacher, or didnt pass on some of the internal stuff or well who knows?? I have found that sometimes the greatest masters (i have met) are not always the best teachers as they can just do it and cant pass on the knowledge so well.

There is also the idea that Chozanshi writes about of pulling back the bow, but not releasing the arrow which means the teacher only explains so much and the student must learn through hard practice. If the student doesnt get it he doesnt get it!!

Loci

[kal]

I agree with that. Another example of Japanese adaptation and development is a number of techniques that are applicable to fighting in full armor. If someone is all dressed up in a pile of metal plates, scale armor, lacquered leather and what all, punching him will not resolve your dispute, but a big throw might do the trick, especially if you can follow up on the ground.

This raises an interesting question: how come we don't see much grappling against armour in CMA? Didn't the Chinese also use armour on battlefields?

Does Shuai Chiao contain anything that could have been designed for use in armour or against armour? If not, does that suggest that it might not actually be as ancient as it claims?

[josh]

Does Shuai Chiao contain anything that could have been designed for use in armour or against armour? If not, does that suggest that it might not actually be as ancient as it claims?

Pre-modern forms of what is now known as shuaijiao (jiaodi, jiaoli, xiangpu, etc), while possibly at times integrated into military training, always had the aspect of being a competitive/spectator sport, like sumo, folk wrestling, etc...

[wkfung108]

I'm hearing a lot of "none of O Sensei's students had what he had."

Is this really true? My exposure to aikido is rudimentary at best, but as I recall, Koichi Tohei's flavor of aikido has a strong emphasis on internal/ki development. Does he perhaps have skills in the same league?

Ueshiba lived during a more turbulent period where he might have had more of a need/opportunity to show that he had the shiz-nit, while his students, living during a period of relative Japanese peace and rising prosperity, would not have.

Just asking ...

- Kent

P.S. Among the other foreign ideas the Japanese have taken, obsessed over, and improved/modified into something totally awesome:

Automobiles
Electronics
Deep frying (tempura came from the Portugese)
Cattle raising/beef production

[C.J.Wang]

When watching the sublime movements of Morihei Ueshiba there does seem to be movements of ba gua there, but at the same time i am looking too much for the ba gua movements and if we look hard enough we can usually see what we are looking for.

What I wonder is why no-one has ever reached the level of Morihei, either he was a great master but not necessarily a good teacher, or didnt pass on some of the internal stuff or well who knows?? I have found that sometimes the greatest masters (i have met) are not always the best teachers as they can just do it and cant pass on the knowledge so well.

Easy. Ueshiba never passed on the goods -- most likely not even to his own son and grandson.

In traditional Asian culture, power distance between teacher and student has always been great, meaning that it's important for teachers to maintain superiosity and be revered in awe by their students. For martial arts masters, the most effective way of earning respect from students is to be able to perform seemingly amazing feats and subdue them with ease. Take Ueshiba for example, who'd want to learn martial arts from a frail, little, old man unless he has the ability to defeat much younger and physically stronger opponents? In order for him to continue winning, he must make sure that he always has the technical edge over the students by withholding knowledge that'd make them too powerful to control.

[Elliot]

In regards to Ueshiba not "passing on the goods," what exactly didn't he pass on? What are these mysterious "internal" skills only Ueshiba possessed? Any proficient practitioner of Aikido throws willing opponents just as handily as Ueshiba. Watch a film of any Aikido demonstration (Ueshiba's included), you'll see cooperative partners running at the designated winner and being thrown without trying to resist. Where is there any proof Ueshiba could do anything above what just about any decent Aikido black belt today can do? (Please leave out stories of him dodging bullets, levitating and dematerializing).

Is there any film or reliable record of Ueshiba actually ever applying Aikido against resisting opponents? I've never seen any. Unlike someone like Mifune and other old school Judoka that have verifiable competitive records and film of them actually competing against opponents that are really fighting back. It's interesting no one speculates that someone like Mifune, who at 120 lbs. went undefeated for a lifetime actually fighting larger, stronger trained opponents, had any type of mysterious "internal" power.

Virtually every competent Aikido black belt today can demonstrate the same skills we see Ueshiba demonstrating on films from the past.

[Interloper]

Virtually every competent Aikido black belt today can demonstrate the same skills we see Ueshiba demonstrating on films from the past.

Not.

And Ueshiba wasn't even the best, AFAICS. Yukiyoshi Sagawa (and perhaps Sagawa's student, Kimura, too) seem to have far outstripped him.

Few of Ueshiba's students got "the goods" from him, even his own son seems to have gotten bypassed. Those of his former students who had some aiki are apparently few, and some even went elsewhere to get "it" when they realized that the old man had something they didn't and was holding back.

Watch YouTube vids of Gozo Shioda doing bounce-offs of attackers, and you will see the external expression of internal skills Shioda learned not from Ueshiba (though he was a full student of Ueshiba's) but from Daito-ryu's Kodo-kai branch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haN1jQum ... re=related

No "competent aikido black belt" I've ever seen or met can do what Shioda did. Unless they got "it" from someone who trained in Daito-ryu or a CIMA person who had "it" and shared "it."