speed training

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

speed training

Postby iwalkthecircle on Wed May 14, 2008 2:37 am

Title: Speed Training
Post by johnwang on May 6th, 2008, 6:21am We haven't talked about speed training on EF for quite some time. Just try to switch gear from the "slow" speed Taiji PH discussion. This is one of Brenden Lai's favor speed training drill and I stole from him and he didn't even realize.

http://johnswang.com/PM_speed.wmv

Do you have any "speed training drill" clips that you like to share here?
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 6th, 2008, 6:32am Hey JohnI know it may be painful, but could you by chance put some of you vids on youtube? please! I always want to look but my computer won't allow me to watch with windows mediaplayer.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by johnwang on May 6th, 2008, 6:33am Do know how to put it on youtube. :-/
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by For on May 6th, 2008, 8:27am So, John is it a plyometric drill for speed. The video will not come up.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 6th, 2008, 8:39am doh! I think if you create an account and upload it from you home as long as it is less than 100 meg you can do it.... i could be wrong though, i often am :)
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by bailewen on May 6th, 2008, 10:05am John,

If you want to promote Shuai Jiao through the internet, it's absurd for you to not be on youtube. We already know you are computer competent.

If you don't want to figure it out, I'll create a dummy account for you and just pm you the password. It would be really great. I have stolen many things from your clips. They really do help. I use many of the guidelines you have given to guide my own solo practice. Things like noticing how "ni bu lou xi au bu" (reverse step brush knee twist step) is basically a stealing step or how one leg balance fits into everything.

A John Wang youtube channel would be awsome.

Title: Re: Speed Traininghttp://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uk
Post by GrahamBonaparte on May 6th, 2008, 10:21am
on 05/06/08 at 03:21:22, johnwang wrote:
We haven't talked about speed training on EF for quite some time. Just try to switch gear from the "slow" speed Taiji PH discussion. This is one of Brenden Lai's favor speed training drill and I stole from him and he didn't even realize.

http://johnswang.com/PM_speed.wmv

Do you have any "speed training drill" clips that you like to share here?


Nice. THere's something of the Wai Lun Choi about that clip. Reminds me of this:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ukJ2jkYfFFA
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Ron_Panunto on May 6th, 2008, 11:46am Speed is a byproduct of relaxation. The more you can relax the faster you get.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Butterball on May 6th, 2008, 11:50am Drilling techniques until they are natural and relaxing and breathing well so mental speed is fast enough to perform them without thinking much about it.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Qiphlow on May 6th, 2008, 12:07pm
on 05/06/08 at 03:21:22, johnwang wrote:
This is one of Brenden Lai's favor speed training drill and I stole from him and he didn't even realize.

that's because you're so damn fast already! ;D
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by T J LePetomane on May 6th, 2008, 12:08pm
on 05/06/08 at 03:33:50, johnwang wrote:
Do know how to put it on youtube. :-/


Yeah, sign up for an account, and then just follow the directions to upload.

Disk space is at a premium on this laptop, so I haven't been downloading any of your stuff for a while, which I regret. :(
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by internalenthusiast on May 6th, 2008, 2:39pm
on 05/06/08 at 07:05:54, bailewen wrote:

A John Wang youtube channel would be awsome.


i agree, john! :)
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by kenneth_fish on May 6th, 2008, 3:52pm we train repetitive drills until they no longer require conscious thought - they become a trained reflex. Then we train them to the beat of a metronome - and gradually increase the number of strikes/reps per beat, Then reduce the interval between beats.

BTW, thats metronome (a device for measuring time in music). Not metrognome (a creature that lives in the underground ).
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Qiphlow on May 6th, 2008, 5:28pm
on 05/06/08 at 12:52:26, kenneth_fish wrote:
we train repetitive drills until they no longer require conscious thought - they become a trained reflex. Then we train them to the beat of a metronome - and gradually increase the number of strikes/reps per beat, Then reduce the interval between beats.

this sounds like a damn fine idea.









on 05/06/08 at 12:52:26, kenneth_fish wrote:
BTW, thats metronome (a device for measuring time in music). Not metrognome (a creature that lives in the underground ).

;D
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by dragontigerpalm on May 6th, 2008, 5:49pm There is a punching drill that I do which I think I copped from a wing chun video years ago that starts with one punch per interval and increases the number of alternating punches per interval as you progress.
1/12/123/1234/12345/etc.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by C.J.W. on May 6th, 2008, 10:47pm I am more interested in "body speed" rather than "hand speed"
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by dragontigerpalm on May 6th, 2008, 10:58pm
on 05/06/08 at 19:47:36, C.J.W. wrote:
I am more interested in "body speed" rather than "hand speed"

What type of drills do you do that develop body speed?
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by iWalkTheCircle on May 7th, 2008, 4:06am
on 05/06/08 at 19:58:01, dragontigerpalm wrote:
What type of drills do you do that develop body speed?



SC match prob is good one.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by iWalkTheCircle on May 7th, 2008, 4:22am
on 05/06/08 at 03:33:50, johnwang wrote:
Don't know how to put it on youtube. :-/



John,

Uploaded for you at: "http://www.youtube.com/v/PVrocT7yZDk".

In our SC video I canNot find the original raw files on my computer. So I canNot edit out that one thing you wanted removed. Do you still want to release our SC dvd as it is?

John 8^)




Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 7th, 2008, 7:29pm HEY!?!? i thought there where no secrets.... ;D
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by johnwang on May 7th, 2008, 8:14pm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyrcpGbzVqc
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 7th, 2008, 11:00pm thank you very much for doing the youtube thing John!

could you explain how that was speed training? it was pretty fast no doubt, but looked more a product of speed training, rather than the method to develop speed. Are you refering to the 3 hit on one step that seemed to be present on some steps?

again thx, now i have a new youtube experience to immerce myself in :D
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by johnwang on May 8th, 2008, 12:32am Different styles have different ways to train speed.

- The Zimen system emphasizes on break through all 3 joints, the shoulder, elbow, and wrist joints.

- The PM system emphasizes on jump up (or move in 1 step) and finish 3 strikes.

- The SC system emphasizes on integrate all moves into 1 move.

All methods require body relaxation, soft, body connection, ... those principles that IMA love to talk about.

Didn't know I'm this popular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlzdq2qwEyg&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybTsNret ... re=related

and bad ass too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHIuQWAE ... re=related
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 8th, 2008, 7:22pm that is my point John, this video seems to show the product of speed training (i.e: development of body relaxation, soft body connection) not the training itself.

I do agree with you in that many IMA's use the principles required (maybe) but do not actually train these things at speed.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by johnwang on May 8th, 2008, 8:32pm Both softyness and relaxation will help to create speed but we still need to work on speed. It's like Fajin will help to create power but we still need to work on power.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Ian on May 8th, 2008, 9:23pm One drill is to punch your partner all over with one hand as fast as you can for 3 minutes. Your partner walks around, you follow and hit.

After a while you'll find that your muscles are too tired to use and you'll need to rely on just your tendons and breathing.

If you can do that with both hands every day, your punching speed will greatly increase. You'll be able to explode at your opponent and you'll be able to bounce your punches from one bodypart to the next, or from one opponent to the next.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 8th, 2008, 10:05pm so what drills do you use to develop speed?

we use a lot of dynamic tension for speed development, also certain waist loosening exercises. As well as lots of relaxed fast padwork using the waist to drive the arm.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Deus Trismegistus on May 9th, 2008, 7:47am
on 05/08/08 at 19:05:25, Mut_Sao wrote:
so what drills do you use to develop speed?

we use a lot of dynamic tension for speed development, also certain waist loosening exercises. As well as lots of relaxed fast padwork using the waist to drive the arm.


If he does that drill and tries to go faster each time he is working on speed. I think John has already tried to say it. He works on speed by going fast. Exercises like dynamic tension and loosening exercises may all help you go fast, but the only practice for going fast is to go fast.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 9th, 2008, 9:15am thing is going fast is not all there is to being fast, i have met plenty with fast hands that have no substance. Many people work on speed as the only thing, neglecting structure and power. Sure going fast helps you go fast, but so does going slow. Again it seems like the product of speed training rather than speed training. Meaning this: in order to develop speed you need to go through steps such as : learning relaxation and looseness, developing good technique and then practicing and applying it at ever higher speeds. Problem being that it is easy to get so obsessed by speed that you loose the technical requirements

i totally disagree that the only practice for going fast is going fast.

Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by C.J.W. on May 9th, 2008, 9:37am Having fast hand speed is useful if you also have enough power to knock the opponent out with the initial strike - so fast that he never sees it coming.

If the initial strike fails and the opponent manages to grab or stick to you at grappling range, hand speed becomes unimportant because you'd only be able to move as fast as he does.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by Mut_Sao on May 9th, 2008, 10:08am
Quote:
If the initial strike fails and the opponent manages to grab or stick to you at grappling range, hand speed becomes unimportant because you'd only be able to move as fast as he does.
... or he has to move as fast as you do... depends how you go about it, also how they go about it.
Title: Re: Speed Training
Post by dragontigerpalm on May 9th, 2008, 10:09am
on 05/09/08 at 06:37:27, C.J.W. wrote:
Having fast hand speed is useful if you also have enough power to knock the opponent out with the initial strike - so fast that he never sees it coming.

If the initial strike fails and the opponent manages to grab or stick to you at grappling range, hand speed becomes unimportant because you'd only be able to move as fast as he does.

A knockout punch/strike is more about timing - delivering to an opening which one either creates or appears as a result of a failure/gap in one's opponent's defense. A flurry of fast strikes/combos can create that opening without any of the strikes being of KO strength. Unless or until one's opponent can defend/counter a barrage of fast strikes he won't be able to stick or grab and in a sense has to move as fast as you or the opening might appear for the power strike..


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Re: speed training

Postby johnwang on Wed May 14, 2008 2:52 am

In Zimen style you train your speed by finding the shortest path between your hand and your target. Your body structure will play very little rule here. The reason is that the major strike in that style is using the finger tip instead of fist. You don't need to have good body structure and body unification in order to do so. In PM style you train your speed by moving your hand in the smallest circle as possible.

Don't expect a lot of power through your maximum speed because you don't have enough:

- Time to compress.
- Distance to accelerate.

If you look at the 3 most famous Fajin styles such as Baiji, XYLH, and Chen Taiji, speed is not their strongest point. If you look at the 2 most famous speed styles such as Zimen and PM, power is not their strongest point either.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed May 14, 2008 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: speed training

Postby iwalkthecircle on Wed May 14, 2008 3:52 am

i think the a better question is can one have both speed and power without loosing flexibility?
https://www.facebook.com/john.hsieh
謝奇錚, 鄉人多稱「小謝 」,「阿奇仔」亦以自稱。
臺灣臺南人,初學八卦掌, 後學保定摔角 皆在美國
(臺灣或曰福爾摩沙,蓋葡萄牙文美麗島之意也)
保定摔角(SC)-- John Wang(王世元), Matt Mollica
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