Do different styles of Taiji define 8 energies differently?

[ChiBelly]

I take peng as a simple arm movement defined by its direction. So, I cultivate moving as smoothly as water would to rise to meet an incoming force.

The water metaphor for peng overflows what a ball metaphor gives as an aid to understanding and practice. YMMV.

I think both are quite important regardless of the label. I never focused much on the bouncing away aspect, a.k.a., "the deadly tai-chi shove." IMO it is useful to demo a principle but is only functional in three contexts - a) if you're slamming them to the ground, b) to give yourself time to run away, or c) if you follow immediately with an attack. However, the inflation aspect works very well as far as applications.

Who needs an interpreter when you have Google translate:

Bingjinyihe boats sailing the first negative real solutions such as water gas secondary head hanging pubic region
All spring force between the opening and closing certain either stiffened floating is not difficult

[bailewen]

Hi Bailewen,

Thanks. No justification for "moving" boat?

I just meant in the text. As a translation issue, I don't see that there's any justification for making a deal out of the character 行 in front of 舟. From a taiji perspective, the motion is in the ocean.

No meaning for the character for 'support' as yielding, moving out of the way?

Ron

The character that you are referring to is 负. It's got an awful lot of potential meanings but in this context I just don't see it. I'm not fundamentalist on the issue but, as I read it, I just don't see that kind of connotation. Here's some examples of what the character means:

http://dict.baidu.com/s?wd=%B8%BA

You don't need to read Chinese to get my point from that page. There's English translations of most of the definitions offered. Quite a range. Enough examples IMO to get a decent sense of the word. Just ignore the mathematical or scientific related definitions as I am pretty sure that those were exadapted to deal with new concepts coming from the west in recent years. Scan over the rest of them though and you get a good sense of the word.

[Giles]

... No justification for "moving" boat? No meaning for the character for 'support' as yielding, moving out of the way?

If the image of a boat is used at all, then really it's a given that the concept involves some kind of yielding, accommodation and at the same time overall stability. Otherwise one doesn't even mention a boat - one might as well talk about a rock, a house, a mightly tree, or at the other end of the spectrum about a feather, or a sheet of fabric, for instance.

By definition, a boat floats and thus always combines qualities of the stable with the unstable. A floating boat is always in motion, either obviously or, even if seeming to be still, very subtly and always with the potential to move more. Firstly it is always responding to changes/movement in the environment around it (movement from below, as the water itself moves, or movement from above, e.g. from the wind or from being pushed mechanically. It is also able to move itself (by being rowed or sailed); while moving under its own power, from A to B, it will continue to respond to movements acting on it externally. And despite all this accommodation and adaption, it will always tend to return automatically to its own stable, centred state and position. Which is not however a rigid, 'dug-in' state!!

What a great image that is for tai chi, as starting point for responding to attacks. It's not all the story, but it's an important part of it.

It's still not "how to get there" instruction. That's what teachers and training partners are for. But it's a fine cross-check for your training results. And in case this all seems overly abstract or artsy-fartsy, I have encountered or learn(ed) from various people in various styles whose bodies do actually behave this way. They don't all feel identical, but they have this quality in common.

Finally, I'm not saying this is the only possible or important quality in defensive tai chi energies. Lu is quite another, but also related, story. Just talking about peng for the time being...

Cheers,

Giles

[cdobe]

Thank you, Omar, for your translation and especially for the commentary. We now have 4 different versions from 4 different people . I have a couple of remarks. First, you have put the Qi in brackets although it's in the text. People might think that it's not in the text and that you have added it, becuase of the convention you have explained earlier. I personally see no problem with writing it out "First, the dantian must be full of qi". Next you have translated 力 as energy. I would prefer the usage of strength or even better force instead, because this captures the colloquial meaning better IMO. "Energy" could also lead to the misunderstanding that this is about qi, when it's an analogy of mechanical forces. As for your rendition of the tricky line, I would say that I wouldn't use expansion and compression, that would be 伸 and 缩. You have made a case that 间 is a "time window". Wouldn't it make sense to use 开 and 合 as starting and finishing then. I also like Devlin's translation of 一定 as "must". That could lead to something like "Starting and concluding [of your peng usage] must have [the correct] timing".

As for the moving boat, I would like to point out, that it could also refer to a type of boat and not to the action of moving. Something like this: http://www.xhlz.gov.cn/uploadfile/jpg/2 ... 045678.jpg

To Giles last post I have to say that peng is definately likened to the water and not the boat.

[bailewen]

First, you have put the Qi in brackets although it's in the text. People might think that it's not in the text and that you have added it, becuase of the convention you have explained earlier.

You're right and I have edited my earlier post accordingly. I was a bit groggy, still sipping my morning coffee and somehow I thought the "qi" part was just in my head. lol. I think it's because it comes after dan tian rather than before so it's not in the same place in the line and in my early morning pre-coffee addled brain I thought the actual character only existed in my head.

Next you have translated 力 as energy. I would prefer the usage of strength or even better force instead, because this captures the colloquial meaning better IMO. "Energy" could also lead to the misunderstanding that this is about qi, when it's an analogy of mechanical forces.

Meh. I don't like to get overly hung up on word to word translations. Often "li"/力 certainly refers more to brute strength or force in the physics sense of the word but in this case I think that "energy" actually more accurately captures the colloquial sense in English. It was no physicist who wrote the song and most of the people reading it are not educated in classical mechanics either. You're actually German right? IMO, in English, "energy" has plenty of very non-mystical colloquial connotations which are very appropriate here. We would use "energy" in English to describe things in music or dance or even painting when referring to quality of movement. I understand your point about the potential for misunderstanding and if I were to put this in a book I suppose it would merit a footnote explaining clearly that I mean "energy" only in the very physical way that non-scientists use the word to refer to artistic movement. The phrase I used, "springy, elastic energy" is one that would fit perfectly in a swing dance class when referring to the quality of connection between lead and follow.

As for your rendition of the tricky line, I would say that I wouldn't use expansion and compression, that would be 伸 and 缩.

Dangerous ground there. You really can't translate a line into English and then back into Chinese and expect the result to be the same as the original. I stand by my choice on that one. There is simply no actual exact translation for "kai-he". I am NOT making the claim that the idea is particularly mysterious or Oriental or anything. It's just that many words, especially Chinese words, are not that precise. They require context. Same for English, only to a lesser degree. They describe categories of things and not actual specific ideas. A classic example is a word like "noodles". There is no word in Chinese that means exactly the same thing as noodles. There is 面条 but what about rice noodles? They are not 面条. They are 米线. So you can not say that "noodles" = 面条. In the same way, I do not think that there is an exact translation of kai-he/开合. Every single idea that can be expressed by the term "kai-he" can be perfectly expressed in English as well but not all with the same term is all. Opening-Closing, Expansion-Contraction, Separation-Linking. Take your pick. In the context of "peng", I think "compression and expansion" is most apt, especially in light of the "spring" analogy. Many translations just right to describing it as a compressed spring...which works for me.

You have made a case that 间 is a "time window". Wouldn't it make sense to use 开 and 合 as starting and finishing then. I also like Devlin's translation of 一定 as "must". That could lead to something like "Starting and concluding [of your peng usage] must have [the correct] timing".

Perhaps. I'm not totally satisfied with mine or any other translation of that line. Mainly, I haven't decided for certain what I think it really means so I am very open to suggestion like you just made. That's a very interesting idea understanding "kai-he" as refering to the start and end points of a peng "bounce".

[Giles]

To Giles last post I have to say that peng is definately likened to the water and not the boat.

You're right of course, in the most direct sense.
But water that moves or supports or floats a boat. It's the interaction between the two and the overall "product" that's the key idea, surely.

Otherwise you might as well just say "be like water, my friend" and be done with it.
(Oh, maybe somebody already did... ).
And that could mean so many different possibilities, because water is, as we know, just about the most mutable thing in our experience. Water that parts when you strike it, that slips through your fingers when you try to grasp it, that can dash you against the rocks, or drown you, or become like concrete if you strike it at very high speed, or as "waves [that] rise and fall, [and] finding a hole they will surely surge in." (Song of An).
But in this poem/song, water is invoked in its specific role as the support for a (moving) boat. So it's by seeing how the boat behaves and responds that we understand the nature of water in this particular context, and thus what peng might be about.

Schöne Grüsse...

@ Omar: Just to get back on your earlier remark about my thick-skulledness with the text versions: I wasn't, like, totally stoned, man. Or was I? - can't really remember too good... No, seriously, I was very rushed between two translation jobs and should have waited until a more chilled-out moment.

Cheers,

Giles

[cdobe]

@Omar
I think we are mostly on the same page then. As for the "extend and contract" it wasn't meant to be a translation from English back to Chinese, but two terms that are used in my school/family of Taiji. There is also the pair 曲 and 伸 from the Taijiquan Lun. Why would the author use kai and he instead?

@Giles
You are welcome to be the boat. I will be happy to be like water, my peng.

I do not think it is desirable to be like the boat. The boat is floating and literally "at the mercy of the waves". Floating or fu2 浮 is actually one of the mistakes that have to be avoided. This is written in Yang Banhou's writings for example. It is not to be confused with lightness and adaptability. It is the depriviation of root.

There is another serious point I have to raise as a native German speaker. It must be "Schöne Grüße" written with "ß" instead of an "ss". Despite the two recent "reformations" of German orthography, this has never changed. See here: http://www.korrekturen.de/beliebte_fehl ... ssen.shtml

All the beßt to you...

[cdobe]

Hi Bailewen,

Thanks. No justification for "moving" boat? No meaning for the character for 'support' as yielding, moving out of the way?

Ron

The meaning for 负 that makes the most sense in this case, is to "carry", like putting something on your shoulders and supporting its weight. It's also the first meaning you get in your dictionary. I don't see this as a way to describe the concept of yielding. I think the most literal translation would be "like water carrying a boat" (one like in the picture I posted). So we are back at the image of buoyancy, that is also in line with the springlike force that your body must express, which is talked about later in the verse.

[cdobe]

This is my (unpretty) attempt, trying to be as close to the original wording as possible:

掤劲义何解 How is the meaning of Pengjin explained[?]
如水负行舟 Like water carrying a rowboat
先实丹田气 First, [there has to be] solid[1] Dantian-Qi
次要顶头悬 Then, the crown of the head must be suspended
全体弹簧力 The entire body [possesses] springlike strength
开合一定间 Opening and closing must have timing [2]
任有千斤重 Allow 1000 lbs of weight to exist
飘浮亦不难 Floating them isn't hard either[3]

[1] Developed through practice, which has sinking Qi to the Dantian as a basic requirement
[2] Opening and closing are phases of movement. It could refer to their beginning and ending or the movements themselves. Like the loading and unloading of a spring, as in the line above.
[3] The point is, that it's not harder than floating a small weight.

[Giles]

@Giles
You are welcome to be the boat. I will be happy to be like water, my peng.

I do not think it is desirable to be like the boat. The boat is floating and literally "at the mercy of the waves". Floating or fu2 浮 is actually one of the mistakes that have to be avoided. This is written in Yang Banhou's writings for example. It is not to be confused with lightness and adaptability. It is the depriviation of root.

Maybe we're at cross purposes here. If, within the image, you give the opponent the role of the boat, then one should be the water. Agreed. If you give the opponent the role of someone pushing against the boat or trying to submerge it, then one should be both the boat and the water. Also agreed that one should not be "floating" in terms of one's own root. But that doesn't preclude making parts of onself "floaty" at certain moments, while simultaneously being "internally sunk" in the core. That kind of yin/yang separation can really screw up an opponent's balance and centre quickly...
Whichever image helps you best to produce something that works in practice.

OK, think I'll take a rest from this one now before it gets too nit-picky.
And thanks for your translation version.

Cheers,

Giles

[Ron Kreshmar]

Hi cdobe and all,

Thanks for the information.

As I mentioned in my first post, once upon a time there was a prolonged peng debate on the web.

Sides were taken, peng as jing, skill, torso and arm movement skill vs peng as energy, qi path, even peng as qi itself, ending with bodies filled with this peng absorbing incoming force, leading force to the ground, and then somehow bouncing the object away.

The acrimony was intense. And fittingly so, since what was at stake was the essence of T’ai Chi.
The jing side simply stopped posting and followed their path in private; the other remained active for a time and their legacy has lingered on.

Instead of clear descriptions of movements emphasis was put on the ‘energy’ that was involved in the movements
“Energy” even crept into translations of the poems.
Douglas Wile has the first line as “How can we explain the energy of Ward 0ff?”
“Energy” is in the title of this thread.

Not only do different styles of Taiji define the 8 energies differently, but some styles of taiji do not define the 8 characters as ‘energies’. They define them as jings or gates etc.

What’s the big deal? The big deal is how teaching is influenced by these views. What kind of T'ai Chi results.

The energy side, qi side, has all sorts of qi study going on. Students are taught to feel the energy in their body, to stand there like big balls ready to absorb force and bounce the source away.

They end up standing there doing stuff that the movement side would never do. Human bodies aren’t balls that just absorb kicks and roll back to get kicked again.

The energy side ends up being able to channel lightning to the ground without becoming crispy critters and then return that lightning back to where it came from.

The movement side teaches difficult movements, they assume that you will have the energy to perform the movements in questions. What is being developed is skillful movement.

The set of poems of which the peng poem is one, appears to be commentaries on Yang Cheng Fu’s push hand postures and illustrations of applications. Or, at least are used that way by Wile.

The peng poem tells little about peng, its only a little poem. The only appeal to me is that it used water in the description.

Being on the water side myself I sought to bring out water movement in relation to incoming objects, moving objects.
This to counter the qi side which is still alive and active.

This isn’t to put down qi, but what the qi ‘side’ in T'ai Chi makes of it. Balls, inflation, bouncing stuff.

When they try to push an inflated beach ball into water and find it bouncing up to hit them, they are not sure whether that is due to the ball’s nature or the ‘energy’ of the water.

I’m glad to see that you attached the jin to Peng and put them into your version of the poem.

However, the ‘rowboat’?

Why not a boat going down the Yangtze? Up the Yangtze? Through the gorges?

Boats just sitting still on the water are supported by the water. But, boat still, water still.

Is that the essence of peng, just to sit there and support what sits there?

Even CMC complained impatiently that if the other did not move that he could do nothing.

In one’s tai chi work does one want to move like a boat or move like the water? It’s a choice.

Hopefully just stting there, either as water or boat is not an option to be seriously considered.

Being both ‘water and boat’ at one time while sounding unified, open minded, non nitpicking, isn’t a real choice.
As the line goes, if you’re going to walk, walk, don’t wobble.

Ron

[bailewen]

Nice job cdobe! Particularly good job of keeping the wording close to the original without making it read like nonsense.

Just for kicks:

1. 掤劲义何解 How is the meaning of Pengjin explained[?]
2. 如水负行舟 Like water carrying a rowboat
3. 先实丹田气 First, [there has to be] solid[1] Dantian-Qi
4. 次要顶头悬 Then, the crown of the head must be suspended
5. 全体弹簧力 The entire body [possesses] springlike strength
6. 开合一定间 Opening and closing must have timing [2]
7. 任有千斤重 Allow 1000 lbs of weight to exist
8. 飘浮亦不难 Floating them isn't hard either[3]

1. How do we explain “peng”?
2. It is like the way water supports a boat
3. First, the dantian must be full of qi
4. Then the head must be suspended
5. The entire body expresses springy, elastic energy
6. Expansion and compression must be managed carefully
7. Even when there is 1000 lbs or pressure
8. Floating it is not difficult

1. What is the meaning of Peng energy?
2. It is like the water supporting a moving boat.
3. First sink the ch'i to the tan-t'ien,
4. then hold the head as if suspended from above.
5. The entire body is filled with springlike energy,
6. opening and closing in a very quick moment.
7. Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force,
8. he can be uprooted and made to float without difficulty.

1. How can we explain the energy of Ward-Off?
2. It is like water which supports a moving boat.
3. First make the ch’i in the tan-t’ien substantial.
4. Then hold the head as if suspended from above.
5. The whole body has the power of a spring.
6. Opening and closing should be clearly defined.
7. Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force,
8. We will float lightly and without difficulty.

[bailewen]

@Ron Kreshmar,

However, the ‘rowboat’?

It's certainly not stated explicitly what kind of boat but I think it's a decent choice because when you use that word for a "boat" the typical image that comes up for a Chinese speaker on the mainland is not the same as what we think of in the west. "rowboat" isn't quote right either because that conjures up a different image. The original author probably was thinking something more like this:

The title of the poem is even 长江行舟. 舟(pronounced "zhou") is not the standard word for "boat". In "normal" Chinese a boat is a "chuan"/船. Also, the Chinese were not big mariners. Ocean travel wasn't part of much of Chinese culture. It existed in a historical sense but just not as any part of the popular culture. So you're not going to get the image of a big ocean clipper cutting through the waves. It's going to get people thinking of those bamboo "boats" that are barely more than rafts where a guy stands on the back of it and pushes off with a long bamboo pole. So sure, "rowboat" isn't exactly right but I don't know what else you'd call it.

[Ron Kreshmar]

Here is Douglas Wile’s from “Yang Family Secret Transmissions”

How can we explain the energy of Ward-Off?
It is like water which supports a moving boat.
First make the ch’i in the tan-t’ien substantial.
Then hold the head as if suspended from above.
The whole body has the power of a spring.
Opening and closing should be clearly defined.
Even if the opponent uses a thousand pounds of force,
We will float lightly and without difficulty.

Ron

[Ron Kreshmar]

Hi Bailewen,

As you know the image of the river is used in Yang style.

Many boats travel on those rivers, whether upstream or downstream, water handles them the same way.

Be like water means more than stay wet.

One point of interest is that the men that sculled boats were and are still some of the strongest men to be found.

Imagine those men, huffing and puffing against the current or holding on for dear life trying to stay off the rocks going downstream, while the water did its thing.

Note that Wile has "us" floating. I guess he thought we were the boat. Water does'nt float, it flows.

Likely a careless little misphrasing on Wile's part but may explain why so many stylists are moving about being boats, some for style reasons favouring inflatables.

Ron