Style specific shenfa requrirements question

[shawnsegler]

So, I know that most stuff related to discussing shenfa is both automatically off topic or been there done that simply because of how personal ones experience is to each individual, but I thought I'd give it a try since it is the main thing most people think of when they think of kung fu and because I think this question will answer some other questions I've been wanting answer that are related to it.

Anyhoo, I've been trying to go back to the basics and try and alleviate some of the sucking I'm doing in relation to my bagua and it's been very good for me. I was getting pretty sloppy and it's not what I'm about.

So, I was doing some sitting meditation before bed the other night and I got super duper relaxed and, while I've felt open from my center for awhile now, the picture was not really complete inasmuch as my interior view has continued to be dominated by the seperation of my front and back...in short it wasn't really complete (the openness). So I got super relaxed and really let go of the part of the eyes that goes back to the spine and got the sensation that the blood vessels that go up the front of the face had pulled back and the blood was going straight up into my brain. Then I had a couple of juicy cracks in the area of the spine in the center of the head and BAM! I could articulate feeling all the way from the front to the back through the center of my head. This gave me a full on orbit going up the front and down the back as per our shenfa which has allowed me to keep my attention in the back giving my back a full open feeling, and allowing my intention to not be interfered with by the eyes and all that nerve stuff in the central core that interferes with your intention by pulling it there whenever it passes over them (eye, nerves stuff).

Here I must say, that I've had some stuff that was hurting a little, and was not feeling safe around the back of my head, middle of my chest cavity and my back just behind the heart. Being all relaxed when this happened allowed me to alleviate a lot of pressure that was being caused simply by the heavy handed way that's been the only way I know how to feel around.

So I was able to take the initial shenfa requirements of our style ( up the front down the back..emphasis on open and closed and smooth even movement) which feels sort of like you're walking into the wind and water is running down your back...for how you get into the habit of moving energy in your body. When you open your body in a 3d fashion, if it was a line through your body it would be something like this \ with you facing the way the line is tilting and your body being made of infinite cross sections of that line..in general..there's the shape of everything inside that varies from that but I'm talking the general direction of the soft tissue..what you can control. Anyhoo, now that I'm all relaxed able to move stuff in those areas without getting messed with things like the optic nerve, I able to set up a feeling that's the exact opposite and simultaneously sustainable like so / . This has given me a something like a three dimensional net made of of infinte repetitions of those two diametrically opposed shapes joining at the top of my melon and suspending me as if from above.

Anyway, I feel like I'm about a 1000 times better than I was last week...not that that's hard I know . Being able to keep the whole thing open has allowed me to set up things in a more beneficial opposition. Tons better balance, central equilibrium, and an instant improvement all across the board from being able to feel my insides more correctly and therefore see the dynamics of things like SPC much more clearly and since I'm less worried about balance and such the ability to not engage musculature in such a way as to hinder uninhibited movement.

Anyhoo, my question is this: When I was doing Silat and Bagua at the same time is when I started to really open up into this shenfa thing, but because I had more bagua in my body I felt strongly that I was opening up in a more bagua way than a silat way, and now that I've hit this big epiphany I'm almost feeling I've opened up in a more taiji way...which is really weird, but it's how I feel. Taiji was my first internal art, the majority of the theory that's been available has been about taiji, and pushing with jamie a lot has given a lot of feel for fight-y taiji.

My question is something like this...what in your mind makes the shenfa of a particular style related to that theory inasmuch as it's used as a martial art. Everyone goes on about how bagua taiji and hsing i were this and that way before the theory was added as though that should detract from the validity of the theory which is just ridiculous. Wuxing, taiji and bagua are just models that can be added to anything, but since the original arts where using movement in 3d space, and all of those models are differnt aspects of 3d space over time, then it should be obvious that can be added to whatever and that the theories that were added to these arts are simply where they (the arts) and the theories dovetailed together well.

So, most of my latest epiphany revolve around the reconciliation of complimentary opposites in and around my body. Whenever I extend one way, I can simply relax (not perfect yet, but better) because I can feel the entirety of my body in relation and have the other half of that movement that completes it and balances it out in the other direction instantly extrapolated and projected That and most of my latest ideas stem around that kind of stuff, and while I know they are all the same thing...what makes taiji or bagua or hsingi shenfa what it is in you'alls minds?

When all the comments were being made about my last film of luohan paochui, Master He and Miro both made note of something that I was doing that was obviously wrong that I wasn't seeing, and I know a lot of it was simple mechanics stuff, but I think there was more to it than that, and I think a little of that is related to this question. I'm not necessarily looking for a cut and dried answer to that...the onus of responsibility is for me to work out hard and figure that out for myself to some extent, but I would love to hear what everyone's ideas are on the why's of what they do.

Best wishes, and thanks in advance!

S

[kreese]

Simple mechanics stuff should be worked out first. All the rest does not really have anything to do with martial arts. Qigong, maybe, but I was never taught to be so busy inside by traditionally trained teachers. Quietness, first and foremost.

[river rider]

I always felt that an epiphany such as you describe was a cumulative effect, passing a threshold of knowledge after much correct mental and physical practice in your chosen art. The thing is, the essential nature of this knowledge is non-verbal, experiential ... and your mind desires a more formal, logical understanding of the matter. Since the experience is highly subjective, the mind interprets much of the revealed knowledge as "a feeling". However, the mind never stops trying to analyze the material in a more objective way.

Each of the IMAs, to limit the discussion, have grappled with this issue, and created templates of theory and formal understandings and requirements as a kind of operational shell to obtain understanding, use, and control of this experiential data. The different systems overlap in many areas, but don't share everything... its all drawn from mass of knowledge bigger in the end than any of them. When you, the practitioner, experience the "epithany", and have knowledge of more than one of the IMA templates, its only natural that you might feel that your experience has a taiji, bagua, xingyi "flavor"... as much will depend on what you bring to the experience as will depend on what you discover.

[qiphlow]

my yiquan teacher used to say:
"ch'uan is ch'uan"

for me, this means that the guts of all these internal arts are the same. it's just the (metaphorical) clothes that differ.

[kreese]

Style specific shenfa has to do with the fighting strategy of a particular art. Relative levels of tension and relaxation will also differ. Not everything is about being super relaxed like taijiquan, including taijiquan.

[C.J.Wang]

I totally agree with Kreese.

While different styles of IMA may share the same core principles, the external expressions can be quite different.

[shawnsegler]

Simple mechanics stuff should be worked out first. All the rest does not really have anything to do with martial arts. Qigong, maybe, but I was never taught to be so busy inside by traditionally trained teachers. Quietness, first and foremost.

Yeah, Kreese...I understand that there is a step between that and martial arts, but It's a core part of most ICMA systems, and the end product of it does have something to do with martial arts, and what I'm asking is how much thought has your particular system put into what it's done to shape the jibengong and what is the end product supposed to be and why. And vice versa...does your style have a lot of technique where the assumption is that you have that particular shenfa and it's a requirement to execute your technique correctly.

The way you state it here makes it sound like the system itself never had or needed the yogic'y part of the system, and then someone came across a generic yoga system and just addded it on. I don't believe it's that way for anyone's traditional system. The complete system should have everything kind of relating to everything else, right?

Also, I don't practice like I write...I'm not having all those thoughts going through my head while I'm doing it. This is simply me going back and trying to get technical with the experiences I have while practicing quiet sitting.

I'ma say "peace" at you. I think we are coming at this from two completely different wavelengths. I hope this gives you a little more info as to how my mind was working on this.

Best,

S

[jaime]

"This is simply me going back and trying to get technical with the experiences I have while practicing quiet sitting."

This is really going to be difficult for you S. You shouldn't strive so hard to understand the technicalities of it. Spend more time in it and just let it unfold for you, then you will understand.

my Yoda 2 cents.

are you practicing those few moves of Sun taiji?

[shawnsegler]

I have been. I can't wait to drop by and learn some more, but my life is pretty up in the air right now as I told you.

Hope you guys have been having fun.

Best,

S

[Andy_S]

Sounds from your description that you may have opened the "macrocosmic orbit" which is well outside my personal experience (I am not heavily into either qigong or meditation), though someone who had done this once described it to me.

If this IS the case, prepare your other half for an unusual experience next time you are carrying out your, ahem, marital duties. My pal was shagging his missus when she suddenly went, "Eek!"
He said "What's wrong?"
She said,"What have you done?"
He said, "Nothing I don't usually do - why?"
She came back with, "Oooh...It felt like a shot of hot air going up my quim!" (I am not making this up, BTW)

Whatever it is, sounds like you have really advanced in your practice, which is something to treasure.

There's hope for us all....!

[kreese]

Yeah, Kreese...I understand that there is a step between that and martial arts, but It's a core part of most ICMA systems, and the end product of it does have something to do with martial arts, and what I'm asking is how much thought has your particular system put into what it's done to shape the jibengong and what is the end product supposed to be and why. And vice versa...does your style have a lot of technique where the assumption is that you have that particular shenfa and it's a requirement to execute your technique correctly.

Ok, good question to ask. My first style was Chen taijiquan, and it was modified by Feng Zhiqiang and his disciple, my teacher, Yang Yang, to emphasize qigong/neigong as the fundamental gong training. I highly recommend Yang Yang's book, Taijiquan: The Art of Nurturing, The Science of Power [http://www.centerfortaiji.com]. Dr. Yang never obsessed about shen fa. This was a result of lots of standing and extremely slow form practice. He emphasized the intent of each movement, and proper body usage, but the brain and body figure the rest out. Dr. Yang pursued and earned a PhD in Kinesiology in order to really understand the essence of taijiquan training, how to correctly practice, and why correct practice does what it does. He performed research on a specialized taijiquan program that he developed and he has results that he shares in order to develop taijiquan programs based on traditional methods--which must include some sort of meditation. So yes, my style has put a lot of thought into what it does and it has put its theories to the test. Feng Zhiqiang is well known for his push hands, fighting, and lesser known for his qigong healing. Dr. Yang developed and put his curriculum and results up to the scrutiny of scientific research in order to shake off some of the B.S. associated with taijiquan and qigong that leads people astray.

He taught us silk reeling, how to find the silk reeling in the form movement, and how to apply them in push hands. Form, push hands, and meditation are practice together and they inform each other. They are the pillars of the curriculum. But Dr. Yang, and Feng Zhiqiang for that matter, are more concerned with self-development as the ultimate goal. To this end, fighting is not exactly necessary. I will say that Dr. Yang's push hands is top notch and he can issue internal power and handle your force with no problem.

But I don't really understand what sitting has to do with shen fa other than improving your overall body-mind connection. I was taught that sitting is a way to deepen quiet and to also develop agility. Sitting is a way to emphasize the mind by minimizing the activity of the body. Correct practice yields correct results.

The way you state it here makes it sound like the system itself never had or needed the yogic'y part of the system, and then someone came across a generic yoga system and just addded it on. I don't believe it's that way for anyone's traditional system. The complete system should have everything kind of relating to everything else, right?

I don't really understand what you mean by the yogic aspect of the system. You are not supposed to get caught up in the sensations brought upon by correct practice. Everything in the system of taijiquan that I learned is qigong. Even push hands, when done correctly. Again, it starts with intention, and ends with movement.

Also, I don't practice like I write...I'm not having all those thoughts going through my head while I'm doing it. This is simply me going back and trying to get technical with the experiences I have while practicing quiet sitting.

Fair enough. I hope I am not assuming too much from a post. I follow a lot of your writings and I am trying to understand your bagauquan system.

I'ma say "peace" at you. I think we are coming at this from two completely different wavelengths. I hope this gives you a little more info as to how my mind was working on this.

Of course. But maybe just because I don't completely agree or understand it doesn't mean that I am from some other camp, or I eschew qigong, or getting to know your interior landscape, or meditation, etc. We are actually gong fu brothers now, or at least cousins, since I see that you now refer to Luo De Xiu as your laoshi.

Best,

S

Cheers.

[edededed]

Doncha mean, "microcosmic orbit" Andy?

"Quim" - well, that will have to go into my collection of English slang words (but when will I have a chance to use it?) Yes, there is hope for us all...