internal before external is a waste of time?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:14 pm

johnwang wrote:
jonathan.bluestein wrote:in their style it can take several years just to develop the basin Dan Tian method.

Do you truly need that "Dan Tian method" in your early stage? Can you add it in later? Whether you get it in the beginning or you get it later, the end result will be the same.

My teacher won't teach Taiji to anyone who is younger than 30. To young people, they need to run, jump, flip, scream, make love, have fun, ... and don't just move like old men. When the time come, they will have the rest of their lifetime to train Taiji properly. Until then, they should do something more "exciting".

I started my Taiji training when I was 7. Taiji was boring and not fun for my young age back then. I can still remember how happy I was the 1st day that I learned "tornado kick". The feeling of jumping in the air and spinning my body like a bird just made me feel great.


Hi Shifu Wang,

I disagree with you on adding dantian usage later (maybe we have a different understanding of dantian) as I am thinking within the confines or perspective of DXYQ.

For example if you tried to learn the style I did and only focused on the forms without the proper, dantian kung training, you could never get any good as the kung fu attained by such practices is what enables it to work.

I do have a different perspective than a lot of the teachers in China though and that is I believe while the practitioners are building their skills in DXYQ, I believe they should also be training in some grappling orientated art (shuai jiao, sambo, bjj, etc). I did not list a striking art as I don't believe you can/should mix the 2, due to the requirements of DXYQ's dantian fuelled strikes.

What I mean by this is this: once developed the dantian acts like a engine, which fires (due to its rotation) the strike out, not just relying on local (or linked) chains of motion. Additionally, our jin is (rou/gang aka soft/hard) but from my experience more softer, similar to Taiji, though we do have, bao fa ji (explosive) and dou jin (vibrate/shaking force) expressed. If we relied solely on brute strength, we would have no, rou jin (soft power), which is a basis for, kuai jin (fast dantian emissions).

Even now that DXYQ is taught in a modern era (there is no longer the 3 years of standing/2 years of walking requirement) we are still required to emphasise the soft aspect of our art, for at least the first couple of years and even when we practice, 80% of the forms are practised softly (you can still move quick while soft) I am talking about the fajin ratio. For example 1 fajin every 4th or 5th move (but this is something which becomes more of a personal preference, though the soft is always priority).

Sorry if I did not explain things properly, I find it hard to convey my perspective in words sometimes.

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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby mattiabaldi on Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:21 pm

Hi,

When you understand the difference of use the dantian and don't use it i don't think is possible think of a use of it starting at old age.

The ideal situation is learn the static basic of breathing when you are a child, open the mingmen bef 14 and start with the fast forms at 16. Before 12 anyone really realizes what he's doing exactly, so the training is almost subliminal and with that you avoid the problem of learn a static boring stuff at old age when any seconds are full of mind work and you are very anxious if what you are doing is the best thing or not.
If you, like me, discover what to do at 28 what you can do is practice the boring stuff for kids and eat bitter as much as you can. Sometimes i think at what i have done bef as a ''in that moment was the best to do'' but i'm frank with my self and honestly was just the only thing to do not the best one.


M.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby Patrick on Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:45 am

If you try to compete or practice with someone who really competes, you will discover very fast which method is better. Maybe you will even throw away all your traditional "kung fu" training.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby mattiabaldi on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:34 pm

Paranoid,

If you are not good at pool and you play with a champ probably you gonna loose.

If you never really practice something (years with results) your destiny is just wander from a master to another and be surprised anytime of hes unbeliv powers.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby yeniseri on Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:30 pm

mattiabaldi wrote:With 5 years with a good master in china of one style, a master who will teach the whole method fight included, are enough for kick ass, maybe not Tyson but ok for defeat yourself.

3 years for build an internal structure

2 years for learn how to use it


M.


In my personal experience, this is (has always been) a false statement!
My exposure, understanding and experience has proven that shuaijiao and xing(y)(i), with only 6-12 months exposure, can hold their own based on the excellent foundation(s) they teach thereby increasing the martial skill and learning! Obviously, there are exceptions, but these have consistently performed well with minimum BS/crap. This does not mean at 6-12 months, that these practitioners are experts or master but what they have learned per foundation (shenfa, etc) is great.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby mattiabaldi on Mon Apr 18, 2011 12:20 am

6 months is not enough even 8 hrs per day 24/7 with a very good master chinese and a body relaxed.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby Patrick on Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:06 am

Mattiabaldi, all I have to say is just train with kickboxers, bjj, wrestlers, judo guys who really train to win etc. and many chinese kung fu assumptions will vanish.
I dont know your intentions why you PMed me, do you want to convice me or just yourself?
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby wuwei on Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:36 am

+10 to the original statement. No need if you just do IMA as a health exercise but if you really want to progress, those foundation trainings are must.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby mattiabaldi on Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:21 am

@Paranoid: i PM you regarding the YiQuan masters infos you request, was just a suggestion free to trow it in the garbage. I'm not sure if i get the meaning of your last post, are you saying chinese stuff are worst (in the fighting) that boxe, bjj ecc.... ?
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby Rabbit on Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:21 am

johnwang wrote:The window that you can develop your combat skill is very small. You will have the rest of your life to develop your general skill.

I have always want to try surfboard when I was young but never had chance. Now I live by the beach 6 months a year and I may be too old to learn surfing. Time is just a big joke. :-\


John

You can still do tornado kick & one handed cartwheels, please buy surf board this year :)
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby D_Glenn on Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:09 am

alexg wrote:Most people talk about internal because they think its an easier way.

When they find out it is even harder work than external they don't know what to do.

Internal/External its your choice but at the end of the day you have to determine whether you still suck or not.


It really is a choice. In Baguazhang there is a sub-system called 'Chuan Zhang' (Penetrating Palms) which is a whole fighting system that doesn't require any 'shen fa' (torso methods), in fact they would only be a hindrance. It's a system designed to take a new student to proficient fighter in the shortest amount of time possible. This was because in the time of Dong Haichuan a student wasn't just a student but more like an immediate bodyguard because he had to 'have the teacher's back' when traveling together. This was especially true in the case of Yin Fu, who almost immediately after becoming DHC's student, they were sent north to Inner Mongolia as bodyguards for the 'Tax Collectors'. Yin Fu then also continued this foundation of first teaching 'Chuan Zhang'.

Today however we don't have to be immediate bodyguards so we are taught the Animal Systems first which require a lot of complex practice, everyday, for many years to learn the 'shenfa' / torso movements and how to tie that in with with all the different 'shoufa' / hand techniques and 'tui fa' / leg techniques.

Like was already mentioned - 3 years foundation + 2 years of how to use it. In Baguazhang though we don't separate the foundation and usage, we start learning the 'shen fa' from day one so it's still about 3 years though. As long as you do some 'zhan zhuang' (standing practices) everyday then using the spine, waist, and dantian to 'fa li' (emit force) shouldn't be a problem.

Someone mentioned that they're learning to fight with Xingyi in 6-12 months - then it's obvious they aren't striving to or being instructed to use 'shen fa'. They're basically just doing the Xingyi in the same way that Baguazhang has our 'Chuan Zhang', which of course there is nothing wrong with that, except it is quite difficult to just add in the movements of the spine and dantian later. I was lucky as I never did any other martial arts before I started learning Baguazhang and of the 6 different Bagua teachers I've had they could all use the spine and dantian to 'fa' emit. There's many people within our system who had done many years of other martial arts and still after the same amount of time as myself, some 14 odd years, they still have no idea how to use the spine and dantian (shen fa) in their movements.

Moving the spine in a fast, unified wave, where every vertebrae needs to move at the precise moment and timing all this with the turning of the waist, stepping of the feet, and striking out with the arm is extremely complex. The biggest obstacle is that the lumbar and thoracic parts of the spine do not want to function as one unit. In Chinese they consider the spine to be like a bow (and arrow) and the arms and legs are also each a 'bow' but initially the lumbar and thoracic are 2 separate 'bows' making 6 'bows' (Liu Gong) in the body. This stumbling block in the practice is called 'When the Liu (6) Gong become Wu (5) Gong.', which for me happened around the year and half point. At one point I was trying to force it out of frustration and I actually made two vertebrae 'knock' into one another in the middle of my back.

To relate to something else in the world I would say that the amount of daily practice and complexity required to use the spine (shenfa) in one's martial attacks would be like someone who's never even stood on a skateboard then learning to ride it, ollie/ jump with it, and then getting to point of being able to do kickflips with it going down some stairs. It's not going to happen in one day. And for comparison to someone who already knows a martial art - that's like just being able to stand and balance on the skateboard, you still have to learn to do kickflips, rolling with speed, down some stairs.


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Last edited by D_Glenn on Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby Patrick on Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:17 am

. I'm not sure if i get the meaning of your last post, are you saying chinese stuff are worst (in the fighting) that boxe, bjj ecc.... ?


In regard of training methodoloy and cultural conditioning, yes.
In regard of body methods/mechanics, techniques, strategies, no. Otherwise I would not be doing it ;)
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby johnwang on Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:22 pm

Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:if you tried to learn the style I did ...

Here is the difference between your approach and mine (not saying your approach is wrong). You try to learn a "style". I don't. I know what I need and I only learn the stuff that I want. If what I need is in boxing, I'll go to boxing to get it.

My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin also shares the same view as I do. You can see that the information in this clip may not all come from TCMA. Those are just the basic tools that can be used in combat. Whether you want to use your "internal" engine or your "external" engine. As long as you can execute your tools successfully on your opponent, that's the only thing matter IMO.

Last edited by johnwang on Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:33 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: internal before external is a waste of time?

Postby Ian on Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:38 pm

I-mon wrote:with all the talk going around these days about taiji or why IMA people can't fight etc...

honestly, what most of us are doing doesn't deserve to be called taijiquan, xingyiquan or baguazhang, because we don't have the foundation. The foundation of chinese martial arts (maybe just the northern styles? i'm not sure) involves completely opening the hips and shoulders, strengthening the legs so that deep stances and one-legged stances can be held and moved through comfortably, basic striking and kicking methods which involve a high degree of balance and coordination and the development of a strong central axis around which to rotate, and pai-da body conditioning.

Most of us in the west are starting in adulthood with all sorts of postural issues and physical imbalances. It seems like in the past and probably in the present also all of the people who actually managed to get good at IMA had a strong foundation already and were competent fighters or wrestlers before they started IMA training in order to take things to the next level.

I'm not saying that "internal" training before external training is without value, I'm saying that it may not be efficient use of our time, especially if we are interested in developing fighting skill or "high level" skill.

This is old news, I know. BTDT. But still these topics keep coming up. Why is the taiji form a waste of time for most people? because they have no foundation, weak legs, poor posture, tension everywhere, and can't fight, hence they have no skills to refine. Why is pushhands competition a joke? because most taiji people can't wrestle to begin with. Etc.


I agree with most of what you're saying.

IYO what builds a good foundation for very young practitioners if good CMA teachers aren't available? I'm talking about paths that lead to the greatest long run accumulation and refinement of skill, rather than something you can use 'out of the box', like Fairbairn-Sykes combatives.

I think soft styles like Pedro Sauer's gjj are a great place to start. Study of anatomy/kineseology is a must.
Last edited by Ian on Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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