internal before external is a waste of time?

[dragonprawn]

John Wang,

Sorry, perhaps on a side note in those clips of your punch and brush knee (with bricks no less) your back heels move backwards. We work hard on pivoting forward from the back heel in order to get more power. I am surprized to see you do this. Maybe it's a wrestling thing. I do know that many/most tai chiers don't even turn their back foot or attend to any of this, but to see you do the opposite of me is a bit puzzling.

Sorry for the tangent. Maybe needs a new thread. I need to post clips. Hell, I need to make clips.

[johnwang]

back heels move backwards.

If you want to kick your back leg forward after your punch, which way will make your transation smoother? Instead of look at "back heel move backward", it's more like "spring from the ball of the back foot". In the longfist system you start from a horse stance, if you want to change it into a left side bow-arrow stance you have to do the following:

- Land your left heel on the ground and move your left toe to your left.
- Land your right toe on the ground and move your righ heel to your right.

You can see that your bow-arrow stance is now wider than your original horse stance without moving your feet but twisting. You move from horse stance to left bow-arrow stance, back to horse stance by reversing the above process, and move to right bow-arrow stance just like some basic ballroom box step basic dancing footwork.

I have to pivoit my foot 45 degree in order to move the other leg forward. In order to generate power from that pivoiting foot, I have to realign my foot angle so the power that I generate will go into the right direction. I'll have 2 options at that moment, to land my heel and move my toe, or to land my toe (ball of the foot) and move my heel. If I land my heel and move my toe, I won't have that "springing" feeling and I will have my back foot been caught feeling.

but to see you do the opposite of me is a bit puzzling.

To be able to spring forward (generate power) from "the ball of your foot" instead of "the heel of your foot" is extream important IMO. If you generate power from the heel of your foot, your will get "stuck" feeling instead of "mobility" feeling.



The heel up can also be seen in baseball throwing too.

[brennanos]

Which body structure and body alignment do you like better? Which body structure is even more "pleasant" to view and "difficult" to perform?

Clearly the first one. That guy is a sexy bastard.

You do your Long Fist exactly like I do. Cool. Now that I've been doing this stuff for almost 7 years I can appreciate CMC form, and I know what is going on. Still a little to limp wristy for my tastes.

[Michael]

Bhassler, that was an excellent interview with M.F.!

[dragonprawn]

Thanks John Wang,

To be able to spring forward (generate power) from "the ball of your foot" instead of "the heel of your foot" is extream important IMO.
Yes, we practice some of this, but when we wish to maximize power we generate with the heel.

If you generate power from the heel of your foot, your will get "stuck" feeling instead of "mobility" feeling.
When we box we often give up turning the heel at all to maximize spped and mobility. But once we have the successful yield and our opponent is vulnerable we practice counterattacking by hitting with brush knee (or other palms/fists), making contact at the exact moment we turn the heel (and the hips). It needs to be practiced a lot to get it to work properly, but it is a core concept of my teacher's system.

[D_Glenn]

Here is "external" longfist horizontal punch:



Here is "internal" Taiji brush knee:



Can you tell any difference between these 2 clips? Can you see any "using only the muscles of the shoulder and arm with no movement anywhere else in the body"?

There's no 'shenfa' in either clip.

Both clips are 'external' in my opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that. They both look pretty good, good 'tui fa' and 'shou fa'.

Learning to use the shenfa/ torso methods and incorporate them into all the strikes and throws is a frustrating nightmare. It must be a personal choice to go down that path but it's also not a path that is known unless one's teacher has already done it, can demonstrate it for you, and more importantly give you the much needed words of encouragement to keep enduring.


My teacher is perfectly happy teaching people 'External Bagua' if that is all they want to learn. He doesn't force anyone to learn the 'shenfa'.


.

[D_Glenn]

On the heel up or down, why not just practice both ways?

Baguazhang has a manner of practicing where one should be heavy, keeping the whole foot firmly planted on the ground, with power coming from the heel.

But it also has a manner of practicing where one should be light, keep the weight on the balls of the feet, and have power come from the ball of the foot.

Both ways are correct and have their time and place.


.

[Wanderingdragon]

Your teacher is pefectly happy teaching external Bagua because there is no such thing. If you are teaching Bagua principle, and an individual can only understand the external shape, if he works that shape according to principle it will find it's way inside. The postures, the breath, and the power can never be generated from the outside.

[johnwang]

making contact at the exact moment we turn the heel...

If you look at this clip in detain, you can see Adam also moved his heel at 2.49.

There's no 'shenfa' in either clip.

Can you show any clip with the Shenfa that you are talking about? I would love to see one. In the above Adam's clip, since he did in slow motion, you can see some Shenfa. But who will move that slow in combat anyway.

[WongYing]

Both my Teachers SiFu Gini Lau - Eagle Claw and SiFu Ken Fish - Lohan/Tongbei teach pivoting turning on the heel.

Gwok Si Gwok Fat

Each to thier own :-0

[D_Glenn]

There's no 'shenfa' in either clip.

Can you show any clip with the Shenfa that you are talking about? I would love to see one. In the above Adam's clip, since he did in slow motion, you can see some Shenfa. But who will move that slow in combat anyway.

This is the same clip I posted in the other thread: Can IMA be standardized into a sportive context

There I recommended that you skip the striking drills and go directly to the applications @ 8:46

but this time I recommend you watch the first 8 minutes. It's showing striking drills while using 'fa li' (emitting force) so there is the use of 'shenfa' in every strike:




.

[johnwang]

Lohan/Tongbei teach pivoting turning on the heel.

I would love to see some clip that turn on the heel.

It' clear to see that this Lohan guy turns on his toe at 0.24.



It' also clear to see that this Tongbei guy turns on his toe at 0.29.

[Interloper]

Can you tell any difference between these 2 clips? Can you see any "using only the muscles of the shoulder and arm with no movement anywhere else in the body"?

There's no 'shenfa' in either clip.

Both clips are 'external' in my opinion. Not that there's anything wrong with that. They both look pretty good, good 'tui fa' and 'shou fa'.

Learning to use the shenfa/ torso methods and incorporate them into all the strikes and throws is a frustrating nightmare. It must be a personal choice to go down that path but it's also not a path that is known unless one's teacher has already done it, can demonstrate it for you, and more importantly give you the much needed words of encouragement to keep enduring.

My teacher is perfectly happy teaching people 'External Bagua' if that is all they want to learn. He doesn't force anyone to learn the 'shenfa'.

John, what does "internal" mean to you; that is, what do you see as the difference between "external" and "internal," as expressed in the two video clips you posted?

D_Glenn said it well:The "internal shenfa" is an entirely different skill set that can (and should) be trained separately than martial technique (i.e. punching, throws, kicks) before putting the two together. A teacher can verrrry easily teach "external" techniques and never include the "internal." The student learns to punch, kick, lock, throw, etc., but the means by which he generates power will come from such things as forward (and downward) momentum, hip-twisting, pivoting on the foot, etc. instead of from the subtle combination of internal structural manipulations that create "internal" power.

[johnwang]

what does "internal" mean to you;

I thought you already knew my answer before you even asked me this question.

from the subtle combination of internal structural manipulations that create "internal" power.

Please provide some clips.

[Interloper]

what does "internal" mean to you;

I thought you already knew my answer before you even asked me this question.

Yes, I suppose I did already know your answer. I guess I'd hoped that the discussion we'd had back in the "What Is Aiki" thread might have piqued your curiosity to the point that you might actually go and investigate the difference.

from the subtle combination of internal structural manipulations that create "internal" power.

Please provide some clips.

Please refer back to the "What Is Aiki" thread, with the series of posts discussing this, as well.